Based on the friendlyatheist’s comment:

I felt a bit strange when I saw the word “Godless” used all throughout the piece — the connotation is so negative — but I suppose if “atheist” isn’t enough to catch a reader’s eye, this word certainly will.

…it seems the second connotation is also strongly present in the population/culture, being what provides the negative connotation, and that the first is not necessarily the “assumed” definition.

So one can wonder what that Live song meant. My benefit-of-doubt-for-everyone approach (attempted approach) assumes he’s talking about:
(a) hypocritical theists, claiming to have a God but waging something “as godless” as a war,
(b) the morality-less meaning (the “but not godless” meaning) for a more general
(c) I assume he’s *not* talking (singing) about “those that don’t believe in God”. And I believe that’s a fair assumption, but yes, I understand and appreciate the Grrr-inducing effect it has when so many associate with the word…

Ah, culture-dependent language/poetry. Can’t live with it, can’t live without it. And now I’ve flogged it to death with over-analysis.

I was also wondering, do you know that Live song?

Watching the video…I did not know it.

In the U.S., the word is still used to describe atheists. The National Journal‘s cover story this issue is “Rise of the Godless.”

I give up.

That’s a pity. I thought we could begin to agree on the essenstials of the Gospel by asking a few questions, but it is obvious that you don’t want to. Perhaps you think that James does not apply to you. Does it?

By the by, humility is not a naturally inborn trait of humankind. We need to learn it from Jesus Christ who said:

Matthew 11:28-30 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Jesus did not only preach God’s Truth; He is the essence of Truth and the world hated Him for it. It still does, you know.

Bendul, show me your good deeds; show me how you follow Jesus Christ.

A question from my side:

Do you experience the word of God?

your very first question Thomas? I have lost you

Yes of course! I experience God’s loving-kindness, His compassion, His protection and even His chastisement or discipline at times. These are all truths we find in His Word. However, I would never dare to suppose that my experiences validate the reality and truthfulness of His Word, In fact, it is His Word that proves beyond any shadow of doubt that my experience of His loving-kindness etc. are indeed His doings. Let me explain. We often expect God to work in certain ways to express His love and compassion and when He does it in other more strange ways we never dreamt of being possible, we are disappointed and feel dejected. We forget that God’s ways and thoughts are not ours but that they are much higher and loftier than our ways and thoughts. In these instances it is not our experience that provides the answer to His strange dealings with us but His Word.

My first question was that you provide a single verse from Scripture that underpins the assurance of your salvation.

The way you are conducting this convo implies again that YOU are in fact the Authority on what scriptures mean. Not that I disagree neccessarily with everything you say; or wish to imply that I have an exhaustive understanding of scripture. But you seem intent on playing semantic games. I believe you take scripture seriously; and so do I.

But the tone of your arguments are in no way compliant to The scripture I quoted earlier from James.

13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

So in light of this argument:

I doubt whether Hebrews 11 wants to communicate the idea of being sure of something that is not yet established. Surely God whom we have not seen is an established reality since time immemorial and so too is His heavenly abode. We’ve never seen Jesus Christ and yet He too is an established reality since time immemorial. Chapter 11 of Hebrews conveys the idea of what genuine faith really is. It is not based on the worldly maxim “seeing is believing.”

I refuse to engage your issues with emerging church doctrine. It is obvious that your blood-pressure is rising again because you see traces of “establishing heaven on earth” theology.

In terms of our discussion this forced assertion makes no sense. I have been talking about our need for humility in terms of “not knowing everything” aswell as our certainty that we are on our way somewhere: towards Christ, and (hastily; granted) used the word “established” to refer to man’s ideological/religious establishment (I would think by this time obvious from our discussion) and still you think I am attacking Christ’s deity.

I give up.

I think Hebrews 11 communicates the idea of being sure of something that is not yet established, but in the process of becoming quite well. 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of seing through a cloudy glass/in a dark glass/scratched mirror. Jesus emplores us to not worry about what tomorrow brings in matthew 5…

I doubt whether Hebrews 11 wants to communicate the idea of being sure of something that is not yet established. Surely God whom we have not seen is an established reality since time immemorial and so too is His heavenly abode. We’ve never seen Jesus Christ and yet He too is an established reality since time immemorial. Chapter 11 of Hebrews conveys the idea of what genuine faith really is. It is not based on the worldly maxim “seeing is believing.”

Your deliberate connection of Hebrews 11 to Matthew 5 (or is it Matthew 6:34?) is, if I may say so, a little suspicious. It seems that you are trying to say that Jesus implores us not to worry about what tomorrow brings with regard to things not yet established. Am I correct? The main substance of Mathew 6:32-34 is that we should be busy seeking the interests of His Kingdom and His righteousness (i.e. not the establishment of His Kingdom which Jesus alone is capable of doing. We can only pray for His Kingdom to come to earth). Any concern for what we shall eat and what we shall wear hampers us in our duty to preach the Gospel to others so that they may be saved. That’s why Paul said:

2 Tim 2:4 No-one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer.

A question from my side:

Do you experience the word of God?

your very first question Thomas? I have lost you…

No response to my very first question?

Absolutely Agreed!

I’d say that the process I am in (becoming like Christ) is the only validation that scripture is real and true

I must admit that I have a problem with this. Do you mean that everyone’s processional experiences on his journey to become like Christ is the only way to validate the inerrancy of the Bible? Leith Anderson, president of the National Association of Evangelicals,
A Church for the 21st Century, said:

The old paradigm taught that if you had the right teaching, you will experience God. The new paradigm says that if you experience God, you will have the right teaching. This may be disturbing for many…

Do you agree with Him? Experience to my mind is a very shaky and uncertain way of validating truth. The reason I say this is because God said and I quote:

1 Peter 1:24, 25 For, “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands for ever.”

If these verses from 1 Peter are true, then we have no alternative but to agree that the Word itself bears witness to its inerrancy (reality and truthfulness) and not our experiences. If men are like grass whose glory is like the flowers of the field and eventually withers and falls, then we can safely assume that man’s experiences are also temporal and not eternal like God’s Word. If someone asked me to choose between my own experiences in my becoming like unto Jesus Christ and God’s Word, I would not hesitate to vote a resounding yes for God’s Word. It is not a process we’re in that teaches me how to become like Christ but His Word.

Do you agree that we can understand EVERYTHING revealed to us in Scripture? If so, do you agree that EVERYTHING revealed to us with regard to a place like hell is comprehensible?

Yes, but we can make mistakes based on interpretative bias of our contemporary textual strategies. This is not simple stuff. There are things people disagree on when they interpret scripture. Many of the issues you bring up are such issues.

I think Hebrews 11 communicates the idea of being sure of something that is not yet established, but in the process of becoming quite well. 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of seing through a cloudy glass/in a dark glass/scratched mirror. Jesus emplores us to not worry about what tomorrow brings in matthew 5…

Thanks!

Could you mention one (only one is enough) passage in Scripture that underpins your assurance of salvation?

Neither do I claim to understand EVERYTHING in Scripture. However, God unequivocally declares:

De 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

Do you agree that we can understand EVERYTHING revealed to us in Scripture? If so, do you agree that EVERYTHING revealed to us with regard to a place like hell is comprehensible?

The ultimate goal of salvation is indeed to become like Jesus Christ. It is a journey which we may call a journey of sanctification. The Bible refers to it as putting off the old man and clothing yourself with the New Man (Jesus Christ). However, every jouney has a starting point. Where and how would you say does this journey get underway? Does one merely decide to take the first step on this journey without having to take into account the prerequisites for the journey? Is becoming like Christ the New Birth or is it the outcome of the New Birth?

Bear with me please when I ask so many questions but it is the only convenient way to find out how people think.

I’d say that the process I am in (becoming like Christ) is the only validation that scripture is real and true! My assurance of eternal salvation springs from the fact that my relationship and journey with God has been so blessed, so real, at times so awfully tough…

So yes, I have blessed assurance of salvation; Because God has saved me from myself (stupid things I habitually thought and did); saves me from death (it’s effects now and in eternity…); and He continues to do so.

No I don’t understand EVERYTHING in Scripture, and feel I probably will die not knowing everything about God. No I am not perfected in Christ yet, but I stretch myself out to that which is to come.

We are all in the process of becoming…

Becoming what . . . ?

Let me rephrase that somewhat. Do you believe that a person can have the assurance of his salvation NOW and that he/she can know NOW that he/she will go to heaven when they die? If you do, how would you substantiate it or how would you prove its veracity? Should anyone claim to have this rock-steady faith, would you interpret their assurance as having it ALL or are they living in a dream world of becoming . . . something . . . sometime . . . in the future?

I think I see your heart. Want to send you a long reply about my experiences in the fundamentalist church I love & still attend, but no time now.

But I feel somewhat encouraged by your last few posts that a respectfull dialogue might emerge. I truly hope hugo shares this optimism; more than that: that we can truly seek to understand each other’s hearts; maybe even find that we share a genuine love for Christ.

I react to conservative oversimplification of the bible adversely. HOWEVER. I want to affirm many of the same propositional truths that Amanda & Thomas make (Jesus was real, etc).

Thomas however reduces the message to a MERELY propitiatory one, I choose to view it holistically as BOTH propitiatory AND socially transforming.

Many of the authors Thomas critices, I will criticise for a reactionary “discarding of the baby along with the bathwater” I.E. no propitiatory element. This is in my opinion however not the case with Brian McLaren. I consider Thomas’ reading of him wrong. I would not be interested in him if he did what Thomas describes.

I however want to resist the temptation to point my finger at Amanda & Thomas for what I perceive as a reduction of the message of the bible and of Christ, because I don’t disagree with what they are saying until they start affirming it as the “fundamental” or “essential” message of the bible, thereby limiting the scope of this amazing piece of literature.

I would in fact like to honour them for the affirmations they make; because these are dear to my heart. But my heart breaks if the message I love so dearly is forced into a rendition that makes no room for those other emphases that enlarge the scope of its impact on my life; and ultimately its impact on all of reality.

Thomas; these excerpts out of this comment thread were attempts on my part to show that I do actually consider your passion for and interpretations (in general) legitimate. I fear you misunderstand my concerns as falling into the “either you or me are completely wrong or completely right” dichotomy. I don’t think like that. I am not a relativist that believes no one can ever be more right than anyone; but I do not believe anyone who claims to have it ALL right. We are all in the process of becoming…