Maybe we can also be clearer about the purpose of any debate. I’m often not that interested in “debate” (in the traditional sense of the word ), which probably also complicates matters.

If we have some idea of where we’re trying to go with a discussion though, that would certainly help. I’d suggest our problem was we were arguing about different things. We weren’t playing by the same rules, weren’t pivoting about the same objective.

might help cut to the chase and remove a lot of the “fluff” that can be easily taken out of context.

Sorry that I used your comment as an example, hope it didn’t offend or that it wasn’t too misleading, but the example is that those in Shofar that love listening to Fred will also defend him. (And they will think they are not biased.) The only thing my comment intended to talk about, is the human response. It didn’t mean to say anything about concepts such as bias or accuracy/factuality or things like that.

That said, I consider us mutual friends, and I really and sincerely appreciate your words of support. I very much appreciate the way you think about things and how open you are to look into other people’s ways of seeing things. I love what you’re doing on your blog. And I’m extremely happy to have you as a friend and a reader of my blog… a follower only in the sense of following my blog, a fan only as much as I’m a fan of you as well, then all is good!

And always prepared to disagree!

Recap also: the bulk of the above comment was meant more from the perspective of the person with the complex, than from their “followers”. Somewhere in the past, I even made a call for followers, *cringe*, and am glad the kind of response I got was “What? Are you nuts? You sound like you’re starting another cult or something!” *grin*. Certainly I still continue hoping I can provide some positive ideas about how we can facilitate cross-chasm communication, and that some people will follow those ideas… but that’s all.

For what it’s worth, observe Linda’s defence of my writing here. Irrespective of whether complements are valid or not, or criticisms are valid or not, you will see a similar kind of response to personal attacks on any other leader from their fans or followers.

So with regards to the kind of comments that are utterly useless, mentioned in the last section of the post above: if you want to directly attack/criticise anyone, especially a charismatic and much loved leader, you better have your facts straight and irrefutable. Otherwise such attacks only serve to polarise and reinforce “us and them”. If someone thinks too highly of themselves and suffers from some degree or amount of a Messiah complex, it serves to bolster their ego and gives them even more confidence. That’s the very last thing they need.

No, I’m not pointing fingers at Fred, I’m really talking about myself here, talking out of personal experience in my “crazy days”. Consider Wikipedia’s definition:

Messiah complex is a state in which the individual believes themselves to be, or destined to become, the saviour of the particular field, a group, an event, a time period, or in an extreme scenario, the world. This could also be the state in which a group views an individual as a messiah, such as followers of a cult leader. The cult leader doesn’t have to claim to be a messiah, but if he is treated as such by his followers, it can also be classified as such.

People with a messiah complex tend to see themselves as saviors to a specific group of people or a specific field, making claims of their own glory, or claiming a self-awareness of their own gift and how that gift can affect a group of people or a field of life.

Think about that for a moment, especially in the context of my role here on my blog. And then, if you like, you can also think of the Shofarian dynamic between Fred and his attendees. And also think of Obama and his fanclub. Such thoughts and thinking can be positively frightening at times, but the dynamic needs to be understood.

I certainly thank the commenters and friends that hit me hard during the days I was toying with the most absurd ideas, back in the days when I was wrapping up my thesis. Keep up the criticism. To my face, not behind my back. Thanks.

…

I just did. Hope that’s fine.

*[comment moved by editor in response to the above request]*

As a (I hate to use this phrase but it’s true) “born-again” Christian, I want to say this to you:

I’ve been reading your posts off and on for some time, and I want to say that I admire your efforts to look at the world from all angles. You are one of the most unbiased people I know. You try to look at every new fact or idea presented to you with a fresh lens, uninfluenced by what you knew previously. I commend you for that. I love how you’re always in your exploratory mode, as I am also (other than the fact that I now know that I am fully alive). That is not to say that there’s anything wrong with those who feel they have the answers they are looking for. Hurray for them.

I strongly feel that the accusations made against you in the previous post in question were completely unfounded… I don’t care if they were made by the Pope or Paul the Apostle himself…

I don’t know that there is any need for any kind of censoring or monitoring of the comments in the future. Let them say what they will… Truth always speaks for itself, I say. I think the way you handled yourself clearly shows who is more level-headed and open-minded.

That’s just how it looks from my perspective, for whatever it’s worth…