I have already explained my tactics when it comes to Hugo and other intellectuals, you don’t need to pussy foot around them.

Now can we all stop taking offense its just annoying.

as we don’t have a base to work from

We don’t? Well, color me surprised then. I thought you would have agreed with things like:

“Human experience is known by observable evidence interpreted by reason. This is solid ground on which to build.”

“On the other hand, many people find value in their religion, it makes them happier people…If it does no harm, need we worry about it? It does do harm though. I have seen harm all around me, I have both first and second-hand experience of that harm. ”

I’m assuming you read the links I provided. A difference in tactics is not a base difference.

Take the teach myth not as myth but as truth.

Strawman, as has been explained to you patiently numerous times. You are refusing to attempt to understand how he uses the words.

I’m very ornery when people re-define words since I think it leads to less confusion if we just use the meanings they already have. Nevertheless, I will attempt to listen to people’s new definitions (or resurrection of old definitions) and apply them to what they are saying in an honest attempt to understand what ideas they are trying to convey. You are not doing that and willfully misunderstanding (or mis-stating) Hugo’s position.

So in the end , jesus existed because he didn’t ‘end’ the way messiahs are supposed to

From my very limited understanding of historical methods, this is a standard method.

There are plenty of historians’ blogs where you could dispute that this is a good reason to raise or lower the probability that a story represents a complete fiction as opposed to being a story based on some real events.

Look at comment 246 again. The only point being disagreed on here is whether a wholly fictional story or an actual historical cult leader was the inspiration for the Gospels. If you convince someone who already holds one of those opinions to hold the other, what other beliefs that the person holds are likely to change? None of them.

Here, I’ll give you an [url=http://www.freeratio.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=4192423&postcount=16]example[/url]. You convince this person that historical methods…no, that doesn’t work. First, you convince the historian community at large that they’ve been using bad criteria, then you convince WishboneDawn of this new conclusion. Is she more likely to base her ethics on empathy instead of authority? Oops, she already does. Is she less likely to reject solid empirical knowledge? Oops, she already accepts that. Is she less likely to consider herself a Christian? No. Is she less likely to challenge authoritarians and people of willful ignorance? No, she already does that.

like a drug pusher, encouraging/justifying the escapism instead of trying to fix the reasons to escape.

Pshaw. There is no simple way to influence people. People are very complex.

Attempting to convince people of true things is, in the end, a very poor method of influencing large numbers of people. [url=http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html]This[/url] works much better.

you can logically justify the drug but we’re not working from _that_ base

The base we’re working from was clearly articulated in comment 163.

like a drug pusher, encouraging/justifying the escapism instead of trying to fix the reasons to escape. yes, maybe if we refine the drug then it may work better, but in the end , you’re still just escaping into a drug induced haze. Fine, you can logically justify the drug but we’re not working from _that_ base now are we? So why would someone apologize for pointing that out? Why would you even want someone to consider that?

The smarter you are the better you are at justifying your beliefs.

see here’s the thing with intellectual “believers / faith heads” like Hugo, logic discourse is near impossible.

Try reading about how far off you are. Stop assuming things. You might even want to consider an apology.

shofar just got effed in the A

Since Shofar chose to drag me into this personally by using the press rubbish – this is my public response to the pepper-spraying incident:

Senior Pastor Fred May
C/o Nilands Attoneys
Box 5217
Cape Town
8000

Hi Fred

I’m sending a hard copy of this open letter to your lawyers. This way I can be certain that you are made aware that an open letter has been written to you, Lucille and your Shofar “leadership”. Certain aspects of it are beyond personal and will address the greater issues you sought out as Regional co-ordinator of the IFCC and therefore also addresses Rhema and obviously TBN. And I am going to post it on http://www.thinktoomuch.net – a website hosted by a friend named Hugo who often introduces and then debates and referees topics surrounding Shofar.

I don’t expect a response to this letter, it is too late and besides – you are utterly barren in spirit. Recent events prove it utterly – you have no response.

I am going to deal with you in sections Fred, and when I am finished I will deal with Lucille. There are very good reasons for this letter and none have to do with me or our family. My deplorable past is all yours – enjoy spreading your version of it around. In fact, as a man, a businessman, an author, a professional fine arts photographer and most of all – a Christian father, I do believe I might be as alien to you as Christ Himself. Let me put it this way – you do not want to and cannot know someone like me or our friends because I am my Father’s child and our faith lies in His unchanging love, your faith lies in the gospel as a means to obtain material wealth and adulation from susceptible adolescents and in demons and the way they respond to you when you invoke them in vulnerable people using Christ’s name. Your only power over people’s lives comes through manipulation, Biblical threats and paper creeds – not love. We have nothing in common and quite frankly we never will. I am not The Devil’s Advocate as you call me. I’m simply being utterly honest before my Father when I tell you that you are an empty and predatory human parasite and quite possibly one of the most consummately despicable liars I have ever had the displeasure of knowing – and Fred, in my opinion you have become nothing more powerful than a satanic puppet who has convinced himself – he is the puppet master.

I am a child of my Father who has given everything to my children.

First off and let’s be clear – so I am going to repeat it often like a few other things to come. What I am saying to you is being heard in Heaven and always will be. So while I speak be very, very aware that all of Heaven is also listening to me.

It is impossible to lie to my Father … and Fred, you obviously do not realise it but the person you lie to most is: yourself.

Some months ago my Father led me to go offline and stay offline. And not only that but to delete everything I have the power over, all the pages I have written and all the things I have ever said about you on the Internet. So I did that too. I killed the pages on my website, shut down my Facebook profile, handed all of my personal affairs over to the trust’s international lawyer, stopped accessing e-mail and began being our premature baby’s primary care-giver 24/7. So technically this is to communicate to your laywers that I deleted everything as they previously requested in May 2008 some time. I’m not sure when I finished doing it all but it was all done by June. In the lawsuit you threatened me with, they mentioned hate speech and criminal whorriwarries and public apologies and all the other legal PC garbage you pharisaic types need to cling to for protection and when confronted with the truth – but none of that concerns me. My Master promised us who followed Him that we would be threatened and dragged before the judges for teaching His truths. I am equally as utterly unconcerned as to whether you hear me or not because my Father is listening and in front of the judges – He will tell me what to say. And dragging me before the judges will not appease you either – because I am a man who owns nothing and my only employment is that of being a stay at home father to our baby. And as my Father brings my lost orphaned children home to me it will always be the only man I am called by Him to be. A father to the fatherless. The reason my Father told me to do this was because He said you were going to be revealed for what you are. I had no clue as to what was going to happen, or when – He only told me the time had come to reveal you and to be obedient. He reminded me of the gardener in Scripture watering and pruning for three years without fruit before cutting down and burning a fruitless and therefore worthless tree.

Months later, when the press called Natasha to try and contact me for an interview because Shofar was convinced I was somehow behind the streakers and pepper spray attack – I knew the time had come and my Father had allowed this to happen to reveal you. Read your Bible liar – It is impossible to be blasphemous to the Holy Spirit without being destroyed. There is no way my Father would have allowed those events to take place amongst His children and in His midst. An old man at another church of Stellenbosch’s service single-handedly turned away those very same six strong young men – whom police, ADT and all your Shofar bouncers could NOT – right in the middle of a Shofar “praise and worship” session until it dispersed.

Why?

Because my Father put a barrier of angels with the old man. It is that simple. No matter how strong and determined those young men were, they would not get past them and cause harm to themselves or the people inside. My Father allowed this to happen to you and no one else.

Remember, all of Heaven is listening while I speak and I am surrounded in my Father’s love. This is the absolute truth of the matter and it bears itself out in the actual events.

Where shall we start with you Fred?

How about being a false prophet seeing that you were determined to admit publicly, “your timing was off”. Read your Bible liar, a prophet is never “off” and in the Old Testament – prophets like you with “off timing” were stoned to death. My Father is not confused and he doesn’t need a calendar.

You never saw it coming until they came running in the door. My Father told me it was coming in May. Ask one of your clones to do an IT forensic test on my statement on the Internet. It’s true. And I know nothing about those men.

My Father will never use the bittersweet mouth of a liar to speak His heart.

Moving on rapidly, I think we should get into demons. Do you remember that girl you used to cast the six or seven demons out of every week? I do. So does Siebe I’m sure. We watched you. I am going to tell you something that you simply cannot hear – there is only one person who brought the manifestation of satanic spirits to Stellenbosch using Christ’s name – YOU. The only occult and Satanism being preached in Stellenbosch comes from you. It’s called Shofar. That’s why stark naked drunken men can run around in your Shofar meetings with teargas and with impunity. You have no spiritual covering because you wanted money and power over “jezebel spirits” instead. Like I said – the puppet whom is utterly convinced he is the puppet master. There is another Biblical and very real reason but that is still coming and my Father is still listening to me as I speak, are you?

Now let’s go back – see … you and Lucille use a continuous flow of young people up and when they don’t have what you want from them any more, you throw them away. Parasites. My Father is not like that. Read Matt 18 liar. Siebe, myself, Guys, Chris, Ag the list will just go on and on. Maybe I should explain myself better.

I had a man fired from Pick ‘n Pay yesterday and for a very good reason. Like you and your beautiful and saccharine mouthed oreo-cookie façade – he is actually an enemy of the gospel. He despises certain shoppers, I’m one of them (mostly because of my skin art), and so is my wife. Certain other shoppers all received his repeated unwelcome attentions too. I’ve spoken with him about it and he will not stop it – so I had him fired. Exactly like you – he is a man so deeply dishonest and so cowardly that he uses the eternal, beautiful truths Jesus gave us all as a blunt and clumsy weapon to hide behind and use against people he doesn’t like or is deeply resentful of. Exactly like you. An ugly dishonest man who thinks a beatific smile and the spouting of Scripture he clearly does not understand or even truly believe – hides his bitter grasping heart. I had him fired not because of either Tash or myself – we are impervious to people like you but because of people who are not and would hate Christ because of the ugly spirit in him. Like you, he has had a long time to stop. Like you – he refused.

I am going to tell you an eternal truth, which you and your bloated brethren are not going to hear. It’s already written in Scripture – God is not interested in how many demons you cast out. He is not interested in how many sick you “healed” or what you “sowed” and how much material blessing you “reaped”. He does not watch your DVDs or listen to your music.

My Father counts lost sheep and you try and make them deliberately.

You have spent years and years breaking people’s relationships and tearing people out of fellowship with false doctrines, gossip, slander and subtle lies. You have continuously and unrepentantly tried to sow disunity into the church of Stellenbosch from your pulpit to the point where kids on the Internet describe your sermons as hate speeches. I will never tolerate or listen to your garbage, its what they say. In the Bible Jesus says we only need two witnesses here on earth to establish a matter in Heaven so for the record let’s make it Chris, Siebe and me makes three. All ex-members of Shofar. Heaven knows the whole score, every single person. Every single broken relationship. Every broken heart. Every single person who hates my Father’s Word because of your lusts, pride and lies.

When you tried to lie to Major Rodney Barkhuizen, you were trying to lie to a Christian and a man who was truly my friend. Something extremely rare between a warder and a convict. And there is no way in hell you could have known that I worked with a cop named Christine and him as a registered CI. There, the HUGE secret is out. The one no one knows about me. You stupid, stupid fool. A Warder does not take a convict home to meet his wife and children either!! I helped Christine catch a man doing illegal abortions in the Somerset West / Strand area and who was killing girls. I helped them get information they could not get access to and they caught him. And then I helped them with some other stuff. And you tried to tell my Christian friend I was kapping buttons across the road in an attempt to try have me locked up. That isn’t even “off timing” – it is plain off and a filthy, cowardly, ugly and utterly horrible thing to have done.

Just like manipulating your own five-year-old son. That is why I gave my boom box to Stefan but I have a suspicion you know that. He was just a tiny boy and you used him to get what you couldn’t get but wanted from a man you hated. Over and over. That is the man and father that you really are. Remember the whole of Heaven is listening Fred, just like then when I sat down with Stefan gave him my cassette player and told him about forever and forever. Did he make you ask permission to borrow it from him – like I told him to? I loved Stefan, like I love all children and it was the only thing I could do for him that might last – living with two parents like you.

Oh, and with Rodney, your hatred – it’s on record. That is why I wanted a public trial when you threatened me. To see the look on your face when it came out that I worked undercover for the police. Also, Lucille finally admitted to Tash that you did try and have me imprisoned falsely because “I wouldn’t give you the names of all the dealers”, utter rubbish because you never asked me anything, by that time you despised me so much you couldn’t even bring yourself to speak to me, remember, you used your little boy instead – and you’ve had years and years to make it right but you never ever have. I waited for three years for you to be a man – living right next to you until the end of 2007. I wasn’t going to badly hurt your bouncers and fight my way through them like Natasha had to and your security guards at Oude Molen banned even her from coming though the gates. I got the message. Those guys at the Oude Molen gate were our friends too, we knew their names, went to the shop at night for them when we went out. We gave them stuff to read. You embarrassed them badly because they really liked Tash. Especially Patrick, the little one who was night studying accounting in their box.

Now you cannot any more because you have proven utterly that you have no character, and zero moral fibre – either as a man or a Christian.

When that didn’t work and you went to M’s father to have me chased to the street like a dog because you suspected I was sleeping with her, what you didn’t know was that we did have a brief affair much, much earlier but we realised it was wrong and why it was wrong and we stopped it. Then we repented before God, sat down, broke bread and never touched each other again. See, your “timing was off” again. Our Father saw what we did and Heaven heard when we prayed together alone that day as we broke bread and cried. Rodney knew about it ALL and counselled me through it. Her sister took care of her. She also knew. She is my sister in Christ and my Father has never ever let one of His children go even when they go astray in relationships. It is something you might possibly never know except as a word you use in sermons called – grace. It is why we cling to Him as His children and most especially in our weaknesses or mistakes. Whatever it was that made her father D put her on a plane to Germany and then chase me to the street, whatever you told him to hurt me and ultimately – that whole family – was only in your own ugly mind. And all of Heaven heard what you told him. You did nothing except cause incredible unnecessary hurt and harm like you usually do. Rodney thought you were sickening. And neither of us is ashamed that we did the right thing.

Lucille, that was your “Long list of Virgins” you lied to my wife about and I apparently seduced in Shofar not that either M or I were in Shofar at the time and please, you have no clue what goes on between two people including what went on between J and myself before she ditched me and left for Germany. I am going to tell you something that is not going to sound very Christian but I suppose it cannot be helped because you are in fact the most poisonous and ugly bitch it has ever been my displeasure to have known. It is horrifying to have nothing else to say about a woman. Truly horrifying. Keep trying to hide your face and scrurrying off or pretending not to see us. I try and pretend you don’t exist too. Shop somewhere else. Take your filthy mind and get out of Stellenbosch completely. And here is a little wake up call for the next time you look in the mirror and pile on the fishpaste. Those underlying hidden lines of resentment and bitterness, which drew you and Fred together as a young woman and you both think no one sees behind the fake sweetness – start showing up faster in a woman as you get older and Lucille, you are starting to show. The makeup isn’t hiding it any more.

Now let’s take both of you back to Stellenbosch Christian Fellowship and the fact that by your own public admission – you could not submit to my Father’s anointed leadership in His renewal church – and as manifested in people like my brother Peter Twycross, who laid hands on me, anointed me with oil and sent me out as a missionary to children. Yes, you admit you would not submit to God’s authority in the renewal church of Stellenbosch and which is still at work in the renewal church, my Father does not change His mind – so you went off to campus looking for youngsters emotionally susceptible to your demonic jezebel spirits. You have never submitted to my Father’s authority in the church of Stellenbosch, therefore you have none.

In the face of all Heaven – drunken, naked men make a mockery of you and spray teargas to disperse the fake noisy rubbish you call church. Can my Father make Himself heard in your midst any LOUDER?

You cannot stop my Father moving. And my Father’s gifts and callings are irrevocable. That’s why when I use my writing talents to speak what is on His heart – things change, in spite of the fact that I very deliberately made many Christians furious with me. I don’t want kudos and I really and truly don’t care about anything except my Father’s love being given His lost lambs. It is His heart. Their fury is at being shown their own hypocrisy.

I have a message for you both and the message includes your leadership and all your parasitic cronies in the IFCC, Rhema and TBN. Your heroes like Angus Buchan and Benny Hinn and such ilk that you say you “imitate” in the press. It is something that came out of speaking with my Father over this and what you all do for a living and I prayed for a long, long time.

It started in a solitary prison cell in a faraway country, when I was shattered and thought I was lost. Listen carefully even if you can’t hear me.

My Father’s Word is His and it will not return to Him void. Your reward for preaching it – is in your pocket.

Did you hear that?

My Father’s Word is His and it will not return to Him void. Your reward for preaching it – is in your pocket.

It is your word and your prophecy that return to you void Fred – so that you say you feel so “sexually violated” when drunken naked men spray teargas in your face. It is of little concern to Him that you rape and try and sell his free Truths – because that is your reward. And the money and material things are your only reward because that is what you chose. I chose being a father and servant to orphaned children a very long time ago. A choice which has broken me, an orphan myself – over and over in the church from hurt, but one I will never change. When my bones are dust and you come to Him with your long list of DVD sermons, books, miracles, dead raisings and demon castings – He will tell you He never knew you. And then He will count the lost sheep that you caused to be harmed and scattered by raping their minds through twisting His Word. The families you harmed.

Those you will pay for. You and all your bloated brethren. He will begin judgement in the church. And he will begin with all of you.

My Father’s Word will not return to Him void.

At the end of this year 2008 in Stellenbosch there were two astonishing events that have never occurred before in the church of Stellenbosch. The one event was the streakers and pepper spraying of Shofar – the other was the opening of the permanent Children’s home for orphans in Kayamandi by Vineyard Christian Fellowship.

One night around three years ago Tash and I found a small child screaming in pain from hunger, loneliness and sheer terror outside Oude Molen’s security gates. We fed him but we didn’t know where to take him – there was nothing in Stellenbosch for him. We found nine orphans but we could do nothing for them, except bake bread and take them some food. There was nothing for them in Stellenbosch. Tash asked you for help but you ignored her.

I wrote that tract on tithing and hit parked cars outside churches all over Stellenbosch and Somerset West. Three years later:

The Merriman Street Children’s night shelter is re-opened.
The permanent children’s shelter at Toit Station is re-opened.
So now there are two orphanages and an orphaned children’s home linked directly to the church of Stellenbosch. NGO Foreigners run the other two.

You, on the other hand, imported a state of the art video studio to make church-in-a-box movies of yourself with student’s food, education and inheritance money. Kids actually starved themselves to slake your lust for money and technical self-adulation. I have been sent letters I never asked for and all Heaven hears me. Church is not a DVD you can sell Fred, it is this greater fellowship of believing and clinging to our Father’s eternal unconditional love that you don’t want and have never wanted.

My Father’s Word will not return to Him void.

Rest assured, I have nothing more to say to you, since the church of Stellenbosch now has a permanent home for orphans, I can rest from my fight for the church to stop being apathetic and to start caring and give myself completely to caring for our baby and I personally promise never to mention either of you utterly despicable and truly horrible people again. Not even in our home. There is nothing more to say other than – watch movies of yourself often, enjoy Oude Molen and your cheap covetous rewards while they last. After that child, we used to drive home and prayed that we would never hear an orphaned child screaming in pain outside the gates of Oude Molen again and that inside it instead all we would be able to hear would be their shrieks of laughter and play. That’s what we prayed for.

That is ALL we prayed for. For three long years. The Lord rebuke you.

Al Lovejoy.

??
did you miss the words “groundless” and “theists” in that sentence?

maybe try asking the question again.

and by “theology professor”

do you mean someone who studies the history of religions and how they where created by man to first explain our world and then to control civilizations?

or

Someone who went to some kind of religious institution who got a degree in being an expert in believing and explaining why the religion of his parents is in fact true?

If I read every groundless article/book made by theists and big foot believers they would keep us in the fluff and chasing our own tails forever while they continue to recruit more people to brain wash.

Why should I respect that? Are you honestly comparing a big foot believer to a theology professor? The one involves spending years looking at questionable evidence but the other spends years in study at university to become a scholar. He learns not just one religion but many and their implications.

As the comments in this topic have shown, non of the logical arguments are addressed with actual logic. Words are twisted, offense is taken and invariably the “cant we all just get along” line comes out sooner or later. And eventually and unfortunalty we almost always arrive at the same place:

“If you don’t play along then you should leave”.

add in some swearing and name calling because emotion is all they have left and you have a template for any religious discussion ever had between faith heads and apologists

The problem here is the delusion has taken such a hold mind that they cant or won’t allow themselves to even entertain the idea that the whole reason of there view is created from a delusion set on them from a very early age. When the brain is developing in a young child the “logic and reasoning(the “why” questions children continuously ask) that should be allowed to run rampant over all aspects of the brain, are contained to only specific sections, effectively allowing certain beliefs or instructions to have a free uncontested rein in most aspects of there lives.

Weather enough damage is done early on or the foundations have been laid for a belief system to take hold later on is insignificant. The point is the damage is done.

Getting Hugo and others to address why they even take up there stance using logic, reason and evidence based on the here and now is almost impossible.

The reason why people like myself are reluctant to read every single piece of waffle,fluff and shitty circular reason text is simply we don’t have the time.

If I read every groundless article/book made by theists and big foot believers they would keep us in the fluff and chasing our own tails forever while they continue to recruit more people to brain wash.

Bring me one proper piece of evidence taking into account the hodge podge of historical documents we have to work with and the blender they went through over the centuries or find me an amputee that your supposed god has healed and we can take it from there.

But if your argument consists of:

We like to talk about our particular myth as if it was fact just to ally our fears of believing in a myth and to vindicate our parents for forcing in on us as well as to fit into some ignorant social group.

well that just isn’t good enough. And the idea that because the sermon on the mount echo’s some universal morals isn’t even a reason same could be said about LOTR.

enough all I wanted to say is the delusion has taken hold or the damage is so severe that until these people allow themselves to look at the situation they are in or why they feel the need to even make there assertions from a purely objective point of view. Arguing with them using logic and reason won’t work. But at no point will I drop to their level and just agree so they can continue there myth/fluff fest.

I’m not the one with a website trying to square the circle, under what ever guise you want to use.

The intellectual dishonesty that is apparent when they ask us to leave because we are breaking there spell is gob smacking.

I am sick and tired of this type of discussion like the article Gerhard posted rather just make a sure an audience is present when u blow there beliefs out the water, use shame and embarrassment like they use guilt and fear to recruit followers

And those who apologize for them and try argue away the bad logic or the emotional attachment that we are supposed to respect is just.. words fail me, GROW A SPINE stop being scared of contradicting your friends.

They will respect you for it, don’t let them bully you into being a doormat.

‘Anyone who has tried to have an argument with a religious believer about the many contradictions and errors in religious texts will find themselves in sympathy with my lecturer. Each logical step forward seems to be met with another piece of twisted logic or wilful blindness. Typical examples can be found in many places on the web: for instance, at the Secular Web site or Ebon Musings where intelligent and dedicated people have given up hours of their time trying to pin down religious believers on the many contradictions in the Bible, only to be met by increasingly convoluted and unlikely twists of logic and inference.’

http://atheistwiki.wikispaces.com/Why+you+can%27t+win+an+argument+about+what+the+Bible+says

However, this sort of tactic only works if the subject(s) are not aware of the fact that you are falsely agreeing with them.

I wasn’t actually recommending false agreement, though that thought did also cross my mind. It was more a statement of futility, of giving up. I’m striving for respect within diversity, respect within the context of disagreeing about the facts. I don’t care for the other kind of respect, that’s the kind of respect I got in the past, while I was agreeing with everyone instead of being myself. Who’s being respected then, anyway? A mask, a fake. A person is not his beliefs, I don’t care about being respected on the grounds of the latter.

No one is trying to insult you so why does one need to add insult over and above the validity of the statement?

refers to this comment by u:

For the record, I have taken you on where I feel you are wrong. The “personal” aspect is over and above the truth or falsehood of your statement.

wasn’t really saying u’ve insulted me, just asking why you’re brining ‘personal’..? make sense

and yes, no english isnt my first language, i’m one of those kids brought up between culture. Have had a rather strange variety of cultural experience. Hence i feel i have a little bit of experience with a variety of fishbowls.

agree with what they say, see things their way, tell them they were right.

yes, agreed , i’m being a troll .. obviously because i can’t agree with or respect some of things said i must be a troll
you’re right. I should be more centrist. I need to start respecting opinions unconditionally so that we can continue what we’ve been doing for the last , god know how long, without success ..
more of the same , _thats_ what we need, _thats_ the solution.

lets contradict our selfs when someone has a disagreeable opinion by throwing hissy fits, name calling, question their intelligence and generally argue in circles about why their are being rude and why you have issues with their language. so much more constructive than debating the content of the opinion. Lets argue the world according to my fishbowl. lets talk about the universe by burning the telescopes, and only by only talking about what we know from the earth.

bigot , troll, intolerant… some wonderful words of tolerance in the name of tolerance.. You’re right, when you’re not getting anywhere in a discussion about opinions, lets make it personal.

such achievement, such a model of respectability.

Yes hugo, thats the way.