Comments on: On “Richard Dawkins is a Fundamentalist” and “Shofar is a Cult”

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:34:49 +0000

Well good night Hugo, and may all your mornings be early. Sleep well.

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:31:38 +0000

Ok Hugo, I didn’t know you’d been affected personally by Shofar’s activities.

I didn’t know there was a ‘general feeling’ about my personal interest in getting Shofar sorted out. However, I am certainly aware of a populits prejudice against white men in SA (arising out of a blinded revenge for apartheid) that has made it extremely difficult to provide my beloved Shofar victim with the counselling she needs to get back in control of her own mind.

By: Hugo

Hugo — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:31:23 +0000

An in-depth analysis of AA with regards to 100 aspects of cults can be found here:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

With the kind of thoroughness that person went to, if you think AA is not a cult, neither is Shofar… and if you think AA will not be prosecuted, what makes you think Shofar will be, under the “cult” label?

Which is why I say I don’t particularly care about the label. I care about damaging doctrines and practises, whether they occur in a cult or outside of it. And I care about the suppression of critical thinking and science.

And I care about the fact that I’m such a procrastinator that I’m not in bed yet. Grrr… ok, few hours sleep for me tonight, I’m getting up early: an attempt to forcibly shift my day forward. May I be too tired to continue delaying sleep at 11pm tomorrow.

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:22:10 +0000

I didn’t know about the AA theory, but I’ve even heard of people claiming the Marines are a cult. However, all that does is draw more attention to the need for prosper definitions. Otherwise we’ll get people claiming all sorts of crazy things and we won’t get anywhere as a society. How about this for slavery… did you know the UN sees it as one of the effects of apartheid, who’d have guessed that but it makes horribly perfect sense.

By: Hugo

Hugo — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:14:13 +0000

Another thought is this: you obviously haven’t lost a friend or loved one to Shofar.

You obviously don’t know much about me or my blog. Based on a “skim read” of one post, you’re making assumptions and jumping to conclusions that are woefully uninformed. Please go lightly on the word “obvious”.

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:10:29 +0000

Anyway, I’m not condemning you. It’s just human nature not to be particulary interested in something until it affects you personally (remember how long Al Gore had to struggle to awaken the world to global warming). I encourage everyone to do their own research on whether Shofar is a cult. I’m confident that if they do their research objectively and thoroughly they will undoubtedly reach the same conclusion I have.

By: Hugo

Hugo — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:08:32 +0000

Did you know that Alcoholics Anonymous can be described as a cult? And I’m not sure everyone will agree with your definition of slavery…

Either way, the point of my post/stance: my contribution is irrespective of what label is used. The label makes no difference to me and to what I have to contribute to the discussion.

In your case, sure, you’re trying to take them to court, so labels do matter. That’s a whole ‘nother ballgame you’re playing though. I’ve read your email (the one you sent to “everyone”). Good luck with that. I’m sure you’re well aware of the general impression with regards to your emotional involvement in the matter, so there really isn’t much I need to add.

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:04:22 +0000

Definitions provide a critical tool to make that measurement. Another thought is this: you obviously haven’t lost a friend or loved one to Shofar. I’ve heard repeated accounts of that happening and it has in fact happened to me too. If the activities of Shofar had affected you personally I’m sure you’d be more interested in getting to the bottom of what’s going on there. (A: Because i can only write 450 characters at a time with my mobile.)

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:55:18 +0000

In fact I have become wise to what is really going on and have recognized it as a form of slavery based on the systematic imposition of religious fundamentalism. Having understood that I have now taken action to prosecute the founders of Shofar for slavery under international law. So you see definitions are very important and you should care about them. A lot of people can get hurt if there is no measurement of what is being done to them.

By: Hugo

Hugo — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:48:35 +0000

Jan, why many comments, rather than one?

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:46:29 +0000

By contrast I have been called a “work of darkness” in a raging huff by Lucille May, one of the founders of Shofar. She obviously hasn’t put a lot of thought into that and merely lashed out at me in malice while attempting to intimidate me into submitting to such nonsense in mortal terror. Now while Lucille is able to psychologically bash a vulnerable defenseless first year into adhering to such slander, it has not worked against me. (cont)…

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:37:33 +0000

…to distinguish between people who are saying things out of malice or callousness from people who have really thought about what they are saying, and are saying it out of clear undertanding and genuine concern. Here is an example, I have said Shofar is a cult. I’ve done a lot of research, spoken to a lot of people and reached a carefully considered conclusion. (cont)…

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:28:44 +0000

…and careful objective research into whether a group matches up with what is defined as a cult. People can make all sorts of careless accusations without thinking. Motivated by anger, malice, resentment, jealousy, superstition or a host of other similarly destructive feelings they can say things they don’t really mean or haven’t put any real thought into. Things they may well regret saying later. What one needs to do is use one’s discernment…

By: Jan

Jan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:18:37 +0000

Hi Hugo, I skimmed over your post and here’s some comment on it. I think definitions give us important reference points from which to take action that brings about progress. Without a reference point society will become stagnant with uncertainty and it’s progress will be crippled. Saying that an organisation is a cult is not something that should be done without a thorough undertanding of what a cult is and…

By: gerhard

gerhard — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:36:12 +0000

ehm , i know he was talked about @ st micheals in town and next door at the mosque they had posters about this ‘new atheism’ with quotes from books. i agree tho i very much doubt majority of people know about him. esp considering the whole different strokes for different folks bit, like do u know of frank luntz?

i think the majority of people call ‘reading’ the latest edition of heat mag. i swear i’ve been called a ‘reader’ in the bill hicks – waffel house sense it just wasnt a waffel house and not rednecks but a group of well dressed family types.
i’ve also heard a guy call another guy (who was stranger) ‘faggot’ for having a non fiction book with him. another thing thats generally not a good thing to do is talk about ‘religion’ as a non-theist in public , beware rastas, they get violent. (people of peace my ass)
point is generally people in the ‘real world’ are more interested in sex in the city and cars, and react violently to everything else