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Do Any Shofarians Care About Science?

April 19th, 2008 · Posted by Hugo · 17 Comments

The big creationism machine… There are people who teach it, there are people who hear and learn it, and then there are those that facilitate the transaction.

Irrespective of whether creationism is true or false, I’d hope my series of posts on the Batten seminar could serve to demonstrate why Batten’s teachings are misleading and based on falsehoods. If you disagree, then go ahead and challenge the points I made. So far I have not received any responses in defence of Batten’s lecture.

Here is the complete series of Batten-related posts:

Such nonsense lectures are not limited to Batten. Gary Bates’ seminar last year was worse. Much worse. (OK, that depends on how you measure. There was less abuse of hard-to-grasp science, but more pure tripe.) I could give it the same treatment as Batten’s seminar, but would that really be of any use to anyone?

Now we have Shofar organising such seminars on Stellenbosch University campus. They associate themselves with tripe, they are evangelising ignorance. Shofar would do well to not get involved with such anti-science nonsense.

Also interesting to note, from Batten’s biography, it seems Batten does not believe in current day miracles:

I came to see, after considerable prayer and study, that evolution is really a belief system parading as science. It is an alternative religion designed to banish the creator God to the realm of abstract philosophy only.

It seems he believes that if you accept evolution, all that is left of God is abstract philosophy. Shofar, on the other hand, believes God makes himself known personally, performs miracles, etc. Is it necessary for them to associate themselves with CMI’s misleading and dishonest lectures? (And just for the record, he is wrong about evolution, it is not a belief system. But anyway, this post is not the place to discuss that.)

The point is this: whether creationism is true or not, false or misleading teachings should not be encouraged. I’d recommend Shofar stops inviting CMI creationists to give embarrassing lectures. The name of the person at Shofar who organises these talks is De Villiers. Would it be worthwhile to sit down with him and discuss these seminars in great depth, explaining why they are giving Shofar a bad name? If De Villiers stops organising such seminars, will someone else simply take over? De Villiers, if by any chance you end up reading this, what do you say?

Shofar’s theology is intimately connected to young-earth creationism. However, not all attendees and new members are expected to immediately accept the young earth viewpoint when they join. Obviously Shofar would want everyone to feel welcome there, and to attend regularly. Over time, they can then try to win them over to the unscientific viewpoint…

A Completely Crazy Wishful-Thinking Idea

I had an idea, that I think is completely silly. However, I thought I’d put it out here, and see if there’s anyone else that is interested in proving it isn’t silly…

My curiosity insists on wondering how many Shofarians care about science, and realise that accepting science makes it impossible to accept a young earth stance. I then wonder how many of these people would actually be prepared to stand up for what they believe, despite being a minority group that could feel oppression from their peers. (Sounds like early Christianity, does it not?) Thus…:

Never mind evolution and all that stuff, if you are a Shofarian and you know that the earth is much, much older than ten thousand years, with a most likely age of a couple of billion years, please consider joining the Facebook group: Members or attendees of Shofar that are not Young-Earth creationists.

What would be the point of that group? It would be to break down stereotypes. In particular, the stereotype of all Shofarians being anti-science young earthers. Hopefully it could make Shofar more aware that their congregation has diverse viewpoints, and ideally more aware that the seminars they are organising are nonsense. It can also create a support group for people that like being a member of the Shofar community, but want to point out that that does not mean they also reject science.

If such a group were to be successful, We’d have to hack out some ground rules: It must not be a place to debate the age of the earth. It must not be a place where “young-earth holier-than-thou, real Shofarians” come to try to convince the scientifically minded Shofarians to “get with the program”. Like Paul’s advice to the Thessalonians, to avoid being socially dislocated and “persecuted” by other Shofarians, I’d also have to advise such Shofarians to not make any waves. It would not be about fighting Shofar’s official position. After all, membership is subject to submission to authority on matters pertaining to church doctrine.

If it happens that, by taking a pro-science stance, you are forced to forfeit your membership, well, then we’ll have good reason for the creation of a support group for “persecuted” ex-Shofarians. Pick up your cross and carry it with pride.

Categories: Religion and Science · Shofar
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17 responses so far ↓

  • 1 Al Lovejoy // Apr 20, 2008 at 8:35 pm

    Posted in the wrong place…my apologies.

    44 Al Lovejoy // Apr 20, 2008 at 10:47 am

    Ag, one cannot believe a word that comes out of any person in the leadership of Shofar’s mouths concerning the origin of life or the age of our world.

    How can they debunk proven science when Fred May claims to have “raised the dead”? And on every forum and blog that I have mentioned this monstrous humdinger – it is the only topic that shuts Shofarians up completely. When I tackled them and the IFCC on money, I had an instant cyber stoning of Scripture and a hobnailed boot excursion into my deplorable character but suggest that we discuss how Fred May raised a dead man and it is suddenly more dead silent than two billion light years out into space in any direction…

    I have a few “scientific” questions to ask Fred May:

    Fred, We’ve heard you claim to have raised the dead, well more specifically that “dead” oke you pulled from a dustbin or something … I have a few questions to ask you here in a public forum because I think it is high time you discontinued being yellow and allowing other people to be cannon fodder spokespersons for you and present your own case like the big boy you claim you are. Besides, on the four or five occasions I personally heard you preach on this under the (untouchable/unquestionable) “anointing” – you never allowed for a question and answer session afterwards, so here:

    1. Who determined medically that the man was clinically dead and not merely unconscious or concussed?

    2. Did you pull him out of the dustbin alive or was he still “dead” at that point? I ask because it has been my unfortunate task to have worked with dead bodies and a fresh warm one is still all floppy, very heavy and difficult to work with. A stiff one is better but still, warm and floppy or cold and stiff – a dead body is extremely heavy and I cannot see you pulling one from a dustbin alone. So, was he alive at that point or still dead and did you have help? And if so, what are the names of the people who helped you?

    3. What was the man’s name and where does he live today (or did he get dead again) and considering you have preached repeatedly about him, why have you never brought him to a Shofar meeting or had him interviewed on TBN?

    And Fred, I do believe that God has power over death – Scripture says love does, and no, I don’t believe for one second that the man in your fable was dead – I think like all your miracle war stories, they are lies you have been telling and re-telling about yourself for years – quite simply for the shock sensation value to young, very inexperienced and naive kids fresh out of school and away from the rational influence of their parents and home pastors.

    And of course you absolutely revel in rational and direct critism like this, which in reality you crave psychologically – because it fuels your martyr complex of the poor downtrodden victim of apartheid with your just Heavenly (transmogrified into very material) reward as God se rykste seun…

    Come on Fred, you had the balls to try hand me over to the cops, thrown out to the street – handed over to your (invented) “jezebel spirits” … You and your wife lie about some phantom list of Shofar virgins I need to repent to before we can be reconciled … wharra, wharra. Fred, none of your social backstabbing, lies, slander, curses, screams of hate speech, lawyer’s letters or any other thing you have tried ever since I started voicing these questions back in the nineties – HAVE WORKED!!! Notice that yet? You cannot shut me up…

    Same old questions, no more ways to hurt me and you still owe me and others the answers.

    So let’s hear it, you claim to be God’s black key in Africa, the torch that is going to set the continent on fire – I think you are just a victim of your own obsessive slave mentality and addicted to slaking your craven sense of exclusive entitlement and simultaneously feeding your racial bitterness by enslaving those you envied and despised so deeply as a child with your own breed of inverted racism through twisting the Bible and actively persuing segregation to yourself – and mostly of course leeching and leeching off those rich white people you claim to care for.

    I would like to remind you and point out that it is the easiest thing in the world to play the meekest, yet disarmingly generous philanthopist on the planet – WITH OTHER PEOPLE’S HARD EARNED MONEY.

    I know my tone might seem harsh to your delicate ears Fred – just answer the questions…

  • 2 Hugo // Apr 21, 2008 at 12:11 am

    Al, do you think there’s a chance that your presence on my blog may end up having Shofarians ignore it? I know how hard it is to reach leadership. I’ve been pondering reaching the congregation though. And I know that most of the congregation that doesn’t have enough apathy to simply not care, may be under the spell of never daring to disagree with leadership.

    So maybe I’m deluded, but I’d like to keep the tiny chance of getting a grassroots movement going, alive. Your style is direct and confrontational, I’m concerned about it. I’m trying to take a gentle approach, gradual and patient.

    The firestorm between Shofarians and anti-Shofarians has been loud and deafening, and people stop listening. I dream about a couple of meek and humble voices speaking up and be heard. That individual, that single private introverted person calling out in pain, the kind that can make people sit up and listen again, to something they’re tired of hearing over and over. I need a place where they can do so. Please keep that in mind.

    Of course, once people listen, what would they do? Enough feel frustrated by the situation, and yet feel powerless to do something about it. I realise that, and at times it takes quite some effort on my side to maintain hope and motivation. The only way I can think of to make a difference, is to build a name for this blog. It is going to have to become quite well known. As much as I have messed up in the past here, I hope this can become a useful resource in the future.

    That does mean we need to try to avoid firestorms here. And we need patience. What do you say?

  • 3 Al Lovejoy // Apr 23, 2008 at 1:03 am

    You know Hugo, back when I was in Bible college – we had this guest speaker who was one of a number of such visitors who slotted into an open slot reserved for such speakers in our curricula once a week.

    This particular chap chose Jesus and His prayer life as the topic he taught from in the Bible. In particular he dwelled on the fact that Scripture mentions that Christ arose before sunrise on occasion to go and pray. Having established that, he then went on to testify how he had only REALLY known the Lord’s presence in his life when he started being obedient and rising before sunrise everyday to pray and have a quiet time. When he stopped doing so, the Lord stopped speaking to Him and blessing him. He then closed off with Christ’s admonition to His disciples to pray with him in Gethsthemene, yet they slept … leaving him to arrest and death and disappointing Him deeply.

    A short effective lecture, which seems innocuous enough at face value but created utter havoc in the school because the next morning, sure enough – the ENTIRE student body arose at 04h30 – 05h00 (according to their obedience) – to pray!!! Now you might commend this except that the course itself was so packed lectures, meetings, practicals and housekeeping duties and so tough mentally that by the fourth day the 60% who were still trying to get up a 05hoo, were now starting to fall asleep in lectures during the day, especially in the afternoon. By the end of the week the faithful few 20% were falling asleep in lectures and any other opportunities that presented themselves.

    At that point the leadership stepped in, a long time too late before the damage had been done. What damage, you may ask? Losing some sleep can’t hurt, especially a student but what does hurt is to suggest:

    a.) Our Father will manipulate us with threats and blessings to force us to obey him.
    b.) We can manipulate God by an outward show of acts of extreme piety or adhering to some fast or other.
    c.) Some Christians are esteemed more worthy of honour than others.

    That preacher was a stupid and dangerous man who had found a scriptural pedestal to stand on that he, a person who probably suffered insomnia – could easily sustain and he used this to set himself up as the “godly” standard and in the process lead people into bondage to works that were not edifying to the greater task of being rested, attentive students. For no reason other than somehow trying to prove his spiritual superiority – but in reality displaying his total misunderstanding of salvation and grace, two big Bible words that are merely aspects of an open, eternal loving relationship by the will of Our Father and achieved competely through the finished work of Christ. No good or bad thing we do can add to it or detract from it. And by subltly ascribing attributes to God that are not in His nature and character – that man preached absolute heresy.

    The reason why we as a Body are supposed to resist heresy and expell such people from being able to influence brothers and sisters who know no better, is for that micro-example above.

    Our relationships, especially our love relationships – are fragile, we die, disagree, lose contact … stop caring, because indeed it is like Jesus said, we had fathers who are evil but our Father is not like that.

    Robbie will never have to get up early in the morning to guarantee I will love or bless him more – he is my son! He is not even born yet and I have bought and stored up for him precious gifts he will love and cherish as part of his inheritance starting with everything I used to own.

    A boy needs a tiger, so I bought him a real stuffed Hobbs to introduce him to a four year old philosopher, whom I hope he will love as much as I do when he is a man one day. I’ve started collecting every Terry Pratchett the great man has written to feed his mind and sense of humor one day. I bought him a baby Harley, because a boy needs to feel his heart pound and when he is ready I will give him all my photographs and my camera.

    I love him so, so much – he is my son. And remember I am a father who must avoid doing my son evil too … It is absurd to me to think that God can bless me more than He has, that in some way He will love me more because I pray more or and over more money to the church or, or, or …

    He loves me perfectly, He is My Father. He has loved me and looked over me since before I was even in this world – exactly like I watch and pray over my own son.

    The most difficult thing in the world for someone in a carefully camoflauged and performance oriented, money driven – business organisation like Shofar, to realise, is that God is NOT, I repeat NOT – a reflection of what the leadership of Shofar preaches. And he definitely does not treat people as despicably as they have behind closed doors.

    He never ever was like that and never ever will be.

    That reflection is the mirroring of the racial bitternesses and material and psychological wants that dwell in Fred May – Our Father in Heaven’s concerns are far greater and much more inclusive than that.

    He will always be as concerned about the hell on our doorstep as the one out of sight. He will always wait for us to take the responsibility and Auhthority – He invested in us to fix it. We have to sort out own differences – He will not take sides. He will not strike us down with diseases because we disagree.

    There is no spiritual hierarchy, He alone is ALL authority in the life of EVERY believer by His Spirit, who He promised will be The Guide into all truth. There are no “levels” of maturity – there are alone the greatest, those who serve the poorest and most humble, and outcast of His bretheren and then there are the Royal Princes, Princesses and Kings, Queens – His own Priesthood – those who serve the very greatest of all in His kingdom – children orphaned and His adopted treasures in this world.

    We, those who are subjected to, and watch, and like myself – directly engage Shofar leadership and membership – we will know these whispers of change among you is a reality to trust in when:

    1. You no longer find fault in other believers or each other because of your strict adherence to Fred’s Shofar Foundations. It does not make you a more informed and therefore better “equipped” Christian spiritually. The degree to which you find yourself capable of reaching out in love, not arrogance – to those who are unable to return that love, will show you have mended your ways and it make a path on campus that shows you have started following your Master instead of appeasing Fred May’s need for more control over gullible or the vulnerable – through you.
    2. When your meetings are a true reflection of the large numbers of the very poor mixed with those relatively few materially wealthy in our community, we will know you have finally rejected Fred May’s spirit of racism and materialism from your midst.
    3. When you not only pray but do. When you stop praying for yourself and start asking what to do for others who have nothing and nobody to believe in.
    4. When at long last you hold the Mays accountable in public for the lives they felt threatened by and tried to curse and destroy any way they could – in secret and with whispers and lies.

    I have never lied here or on any forum concerning the Mays. I have no reason to, because they have nothing that I want or need remotely – they are just human parasites in our town, using God to leech “blessings” and cash money by lying about His nature and character.

    No matter what my tone Hugo … but from here on, I will listen and observe, although I will bet cash money that nothing you, I or anyone else can say here – will stop those who are under Fred May’s spell, they will keep empowering him materially with everything he wants, deny his lies, immoral and deceitful acts, continue to idolise him and give him false authority that only belongs to Christ because fear is one hell of a motivator, epsecially when you threaten love in any way… or tap into spirtual narcissism and plain ordinary material greed.

    I would still like to discuss false prophesy, curses, people not taking chemo and dying from cancer and Fred May apparently raising the dead …

    Does anyone in Shofar care about those real, very real people in Shofar who were thrown out of Shofar by Fred May and who lost all their fellowship with their own friends? Does it matter to anyone in Shofar that the Mays hurt, used, abused and chased away so many people for disagreeing with Fred over his doctrines? Does it matter to anyone that they spread rumors and lies – that can be proven publicly??? Do you even care … ?

    WHO and WHAT do you really care for MOST Shofar? Who? Truly who?

    What do your actions and words really tell us? Why do you find yourself in this place?

  • 4 Al Lovejoy // Apr 23, 2008 at 7:44 am

    You know Hugo, back when I was in Bible college – we had this guest speaker who was one of a number of such visitors who fit into an open slot reserved for such speakers in our curricula once a week.

    This particular chap chose Jesus and His prayer life as the topic he taught from in the Bible. In particular he dwelled on the fact that Scripture mentions that Christ arose before sunrise on occasion to go and pray. Having established that, he then went on to testify how he had only REALLY known the Lord’s presence in his life when he started being obedient and rising before sunrise everyday to pray and have a quiet time. When he stopped doing so, the Lord stopped speaking to Him and blessing him. The man then closed off with Christ’s admonition to His disciples to pray with him in Gethsemane, yet they slept … leaving him to arrest and death and disappointing Him deeply.

    A short effective lecture, which seems innocuous enough at face value but created utter havoc in the school because the next morning, sure enough – the ENTIRE student body arose at 04h30 – 05h00 (according to their obedience) – to pray!!! Now you might commend this except that the course itself was so packed lectures, meetings, practicals and housekeeping duties and so tough mentally that by the fourth day the 60% who were still trying to get up a 05hoo, were now starting to fall asleep in lectures during the day, especially in the afternoon. By the end of the week the faithful few 20% still rising early, were falling asleep in lectures and any other opportunity that presented itself.

    At that point the leadership stepped in, a long time too late – the damage had been done. What damage, you may ask? Losing some sleep can’t hurt, especially a student -but what DOES DAMAGE is to suggest:

    a.) Our Father will manipulate us with threats and blessings to force us to obey him.
    b.) We can manipulate God by an outward show of acts of extreme piety or adhering to some fast or other.
    c.) Some Christians are esteemed more worthy of honour than others.

    That preacher was a stupid and dangerous man who had found a scriptural pedestal to stand on that he, a person who probably suffered insomnia – could easily sustain and he used this to set himself up as the “godly” standard and in the process lead people into bondage to works that were not edifying to the greater task of being rested, attentive students. For no reason other than somehow trying to prove his spiritual superiority – but in reality displaying his total misunderstanding of salvation and grace, two big Bible words that are merely aspects of an open, eternal loving relationship by the will of Our Father alone and achieved completely through the finished work of Christ through faith. And even that faith is authored by the Father. No good or bad thing we do can add to it or detract from it. And by subtly ascribing attributes to God that are not a part of His nature and character – that man preached absolute heresy.

    The reason why we as a Body are supposed to resist heresy and expel such people from being able to influence brothers and sisters who know no better, yet – is exactly because of that micro-example above. See how simple it is for me to convince a believer that I can buy a blessing from God with money???

    Our relationships, especially our love relationships – are fragile, we die, disagree, lose contact … stop caring, because indeed it is like Jesus said, we had fathers who are evil but our Father is not like that.

    Robbie will never have to get up early in the morning to guarantee I will love or bless him more – he is my son! He is not even born yet and I have bought and stored up for him precious gifts he will love and cherish as part of his inheritance starting with everything I used to own.

    A baby boy needs a tiger, so I bought him a real stuffed Hobbs to introduce him to a four year old philosopher, whom I hope he will love as much as I do when he is a man one day. I’ve started collecting every Terry Pratchett the great man has written to feed his mind and sense of humour one day. I bought him a baby Harley, because a boy needs to feel his heart pound and when he is ready I will give him all my photographs and my camera.

    I love him so, so much – he is my son. And remember I am a father who must avoid doing my son evil too … It is absurd to me to think that God can bless me more than He has, that in some way He will love me more because I pray more or hand over more money to the church or, or, or …

    He loves me perfectly, He is My Father. He has loved me and looked over me since before I was even in this world – exactly like I watch and pray over my own son.

    The most difficult thing in the world for someone in a carefully camouflaged and performance oriented, money driven – business organisation like Shofar, to realise, is that God is NOT, I repeat NOT – a reflection of what the leadership of Shofar preaches. And he definitely does not treat people as despicably as they have behind closed doors.

    He never ever was like that and never ever will be.

    That reflection is the mirroring of the racial bitterness’s and material and psychological inferiority and wants that dwell in Fred May – Our Father in Heaven’s concerns are far greater and much more inclusive than that.

    He will always be as concerned about the hell on our doorstep as the one out of sight. He will always wait for us to take the responsibility and Authority – He invested in us to fix it. We have to sort out own differences – He will not take sides. He will not strike us down with diseases or ruin our lives because we disagree over Him.

    There is no spiritual hierarchy; no submission to a pyramid or gospel idol – He alone is ALL authority in the life of EVERY believer by His Spirit, whom He promised will be The Guide into all truth. There are no “levels” of maturity – there are alone the greatest, those who serve the poorest and most humble, the outcasts among His brethren and then there are the Royal Princes, Princesses and Kings, Queens – His own Priesthood crowned with eternal glory – those who serve the very greatest of all in His kingdom – orphaned children – His adopted treasures in this world and paid for with His blood.

    We, those who are subjected to, and watch, or like myself – directly engage Shofar leadership and membership – we will know these “whispers of change” among you have become a reality to trust in when:

    1. You no longer find fault in other believers or each other because of your strict adherence to Fred’s Shofar Foundations. It does not make you a more informed and therefore better “equipped” Christian spiritually. The degree to which you find yourself capable of reaching out in love, not arrogance – to those who are unable to return that love, will show you have mended your ways and it make a path on campus that shows you have started following your Master instead of appeasing Fred May’s need for more control over gullible or the vulnerable – through you.
    2. When your meetings are a true reflection of the large numbers of the very poor mixed with those relatively few materially wealthy in our community, we will know you have finally rejected Fred May’s spirit of racism and materialism from your midst.
    3. When you not only pray but do. When you stop praying for yourself and start asking Him what to DO for others who have nothing and nobody to believe in, then we will know you are seeking His heart.
    4. When at long last you hold the Mays accountable in public for the lives they felt threatened by and tried to curse and destroy any way they could – in secret and with whispers and lies.

    I have never lied here or on any forum concerning the Mays. I have no reason to, because they have nothing that I want or need remotely – they are just human parasites in our town, using God to leech “blessings” and cash money by lying about His nature and character. And the means for Fred to practise his flavour of racism and personal narcissism.

    No matter what my tone Hugo, these things are real and until now – have not changed … but from here on, I will listen and observe, although I will bet cash money that nothing you, I or anyone else can say here – will stop those who are under Fred May’s spell, they will keep empowering him materially with everything he wants, deny his history of lies, immoral and deceitful acts, continue to idolise him and give him false authority that only belongs to Christ because fear is one hell of a motivator, especially when you threaten love effectively in any way… or tap into a man’s spiritual narcissism and plain ordinary material greed.

    I would still like to discuss false prophesy, curses, people not taking chemo like their specialists ordered and dying from cancer and Fred May apparently raising the dead …

    Does anyone in Shofar care about those real, very real people in Shofar, elders even – who were thrown out of Shofar by Fred May and who lost all fellowship with their own friends? Does it matter to anyone in Shofar that the Mays hurt, used, abused and chased away so many people for disagreeing with Fred over his doctrines? Does it matter to anyone that they spread rumours and lies – that can be proven publicly??? Do you even care … ?

    WHO and WHAT do you really care for MOST Shofar? Who? Truly who?

    What do your actions and words really tell us? Why do you find yourself in this ugly place? Don’t convince yourself it is because you are martyrs for the gospel, not when money is the god and Fred May the idol.

  • 5 bluegray // Apr 23, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    Sorry if I seem blunt, but I don’t read your blog regularly, so a few questions before I reply:
    Why the need to rescue Shofar from the clutches of Creationism? Are you a member?
    If you don’t agree with certain aspects of the Shofar faith, why do you feel the need to change it, and not discard it entirely, maybe look for something more in line with your beliefs.

  • 6 “What is your agenda?” he asks. // Apr 24, 2008 at 2:30 am

    […] post. Let me give my current conclusion on the matter as an answer to bluegray’s comment on Do Any Shofarians Care About Science? He asked: Sorry if I seem blunt, but I don’t read your blog regularly, so a few questions before […]

  • 7 Hugo // Apr 24, 2008 at 3:40 am

    bluegray, as you may have noticed ;), I responded to your comment with a new post.

  • 8 Hugo // Apr 30, 2008 at 2:32 am

    SCIENCE FANS, read this comment!

    A Shofarian friend joined the group. We had a short exchange there about creationism and evolution, you can check it out if you want.

    Then he created a new group, “Members and attendees of Shofar who like to debate science”, as a more “neutral” group than mine. I pointed out I’m not keen on debating or convincing anyone of anything, I don’t have the energy for that. We can discuss it though. So how there’s a group “Members and attendees of Shofar who like to discuss science”.

    He hopes to bring in some “creation scientists”. Any interest in a “civil discussion” about creationism? I’ll give it a shot, but don’t want to invest much energy. I bet you guys probably don’t either? I’m thinking maybe we can learn some things, about where the gaps in science education is in this country, and what might be useful to include in a series of science lectures, assuming someone (me?) will have time to organise something like that, and that there will be enough interest from potential lecturers.

    With regards to this kind of lecture series, I’m looking for broad coverage of the universe’s history, from diverse scientific fields, targeted at lay people. And get it on tape, maybe share it on YouTube?, or somewhere, as an educational resource? A good baseline introduction to the fields of science that has to be rejected/ignored in order to become a creationist…

    Feedback?

  • 9 Kenneth Oberlander // Apr 30, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    Any David Attenborough series would do the job from a biological perspective. As regards the origins and age of the universe, Carl Sagans series are good, if a bit outdated.

    There are excellent clips on youtube already, addressing creationist misunderstandings of science and evolution in particular. Here are a couple of my favourites:
    One addressing scientific outcomes:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uephBmkupvQ

    One showing how evolution is a blind watchmaker:
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0

    Start with those…

  • 10 Hugo // Apr 30, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    David Attenborough might be something I should look into. I have Carl Sagan’s series on DVD, I wonder if I should try to find a larger venue than my home, and then invite many people to watch it with me? It is still verbose and hard to get people to see it.

    Your first youtube link, as fun as it is and as much as you appreciate it, you must understand how that’s not going to be of much use in educating a creationist. Remember also that they distinguish between what they call “operational science”, which is used to develop the cool tech, and, um, “historical science”, or what did they call it? Thunderf00t’s clips are great fun and probably useful for shutting up a creationist, but they aren’t exactly what I’m looking for for educational purposes. They’re not the kind of thing I can send to a good friend or family member, for example.

    Carl Sagan or David Attenborough, yes. More of that kind of thing. More people with patience. (Once you’ve tried that, and they won’t listen, *then* you can whip out the Thunderf00t. Have you seen his series of 24 clips, “why people laugh at creationists”?)

  • 11 More Batten Seminar Coverage in Die Matie // Apr 30, 2008 at 3:57 pm

    […] An index to all my Batten-related posts can be found at Do Any Shofarians Care About Science? […]

  • 12 Hugo // Apr 30, 2008 at 4:28 pm

    In particular, one thing that would be useful would be some nice clips that I could distribute via Facebook’s “FunWall”. I have a number of probably-creationists sending me various evangelical-leaning YouTube clips. I don’t want it to turn into a battle, I just want some good clean patient educational clips, interesting or inspiring enough to send to everyone via FunWall, with an educational message.

  • 13 Hugo // May 1, 2008 at 12:58 am

    I must say, I’m absolutely falling in love with Thunderf00t’s video clips. Now I’m wondering how to best share them for maximum visibility… 😉

    Maybe bumping heads with a creationist recently is encouraging this: creationists that discount the testimonies of scientists, because their job is to be scientists…

    Yes dear, a scientist can’t get a job doing anti-science, by necessity they have to apply scientific principles and critical thinking and look for evidence. And because with our current knowledge of evidence and the like, and evolution being our only theory that stands up to the evidence, you do have to be an “evolutionist” to get a job. Being a creationist is not an example of “refusing indoctrination”, it is an example of “refusing the scientific method”.

  • 14 Creation Ministries International Strikes Stellenbosch Again — Noah’s Flood? // Aug 23, 2008 at 2:46 am

    […] provided by Auke. Below is the full index of my posts related to the seminar (copied from a previous post, dropping the fluff), followed by some discussion about Noah’s […]

  • 15 Chris // Oct 21, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    Simply put, people who believe in a young earth are throwing stones at Science. They should be made aware of the contradtictions in their views, their irrationality, non-objectivity and use of non-logic, its that simple. A few guys streaked at last weaks 2’nd service – they also sprayed some peper spray…. Shofar is a propagandist bigoted brainwashing machine!!!

  • 16 Hugo // Oct 21, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    Sounds like a couple of people had some fun. But I think “some fun for some people” is the only good that comes from something like that. For people in Shofar, it simply confirms their beliefs. The landscape just becomes more polarized. War comes just one step closer. *sigh*. Hopefully it is an infinite number of steps away.

  • 17 Chris // Oct 29, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    First London bus atheist, agnostic advertising launched.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7681914.stm

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