It did challenge my ideas about church in a good way, plus lead to some good laughs. I think we too easily lose ourselves within the domain of intellect and somehow lose our sense of humour in the process.

Having said that, things at Shofar have been changing A LOT over the past year or so. The leadership have been very open about mistakes made in the past and they have repented towards those who were hurt and offended through their actions. The legalistic approach and structures have made way for a much more gracious and loving manner. These changes that have taken place eversince your initial post is a very encouraging and significant thing to notice. And I know it won’t stop now.

Praise God for growth and change.

I really appreciate everyone’s input/opinion/conviction/honesty/revelation… Viva la freedom of speech.

Aside for the fact that my head is aching after only reading 15% of abovementioned… here’s my contribution/observation:

We are all fallen.
We are all hurt.
We are all recklessly disconnected from what God intended us to be and somehow voicing our opinion temporarily eases the pain.

Yet, in Jesus Christ, somehow, there’s restoration. There is unity.
There is the Promise of His Return to fetch His Bride – the Global Church. One body. Spotless.

I doubt the use of endless disputes about who is wrong and who is right. Surely, even the ignorant will at some stage, sooner or later be waken up, be it by God himself. I dare say it, because He loves us.

I can not speak on behalf of God, though. But I am his daughter. And I know from experience that personal faith, however timid and wavering it may be, be it tried and tested, failing or prevailing.. in the end it endures. Not because of myself, but because of Him.
For God alone sees our hearts, knows our motives and remains just and faithful to Who He is.

And in my short span of nearly 24 years upon this earth, I have come to realize that His Message, His Way have been around long before my birth and it will outlast my current life. I’m but a speck of dust in the desert.

All I can do is seek His face, know His Presence and receive His love.
My prayer for all of us is that together we will all learn to live a responsive life of freedom, love and joy – for His sake.

Shofar isn’t perfect, no church is. But glory to the God who will unite His Church in such an awe-inspiring, supernatural and glorious way – that all our thoughts and ideas and arguments will swiftly fade away.

We are all part of one body, we should be interdependant. But thank God for His grace, otherwise there wouldn’t have been much left of me by now.

Shalom

PS.
Books worth reading:

Velvet Elvis – Rob Bell
Jesus wants to save Christians – Rob Bell

Blue like Jazz – Donald Miller
A Million Miles in a Thousand Years – Donald Miller

Stuff Christians Like – Johnathan Acuff (StuffChristiansLike.net)

I can really speak only for myself.

Understood. But you’re closer to the answers to my questions than I am (being part of this church as you are), so I feel your insights would be valuable.

But again, I really love others who don’t feel like I do.

Hmmm…why, if I may ask? I’m not condoning hating people, just asking what are the reasons behind your appreciation of diversity.

I would just like to also say to you Kenneth that on behalf of other Christians including those in Shofar that I REALLY AM SORRY FOR ANY HURT that other Christians caused you by the way in which they might have treated you.If applicable.

*Blink*.

Thanks for the sentiment, but this falls in the Not Applicable box! Christians haven’t hurt me specifically. Not any more than any other religious or irreligious group has. You don’t need to take responsibility for whatever (minor) hurt has been caused me by anyone else.

This question obviously I cannot answer on behalf of the church. I do not know what it is about but yes I mean if there are criticism one always look at the facts and give a reason why you answered in a certain manner.

OK. Thanks for this answer.

This again is my personal opinion, I do not speak for Shofar, In my personal opinion, I think science is really wonderful. It gives us lots of answers on phenomena through research practical testing etc.
As long as you can look at all the facts concerning Science is great.

OK. Perhaps I should re-phrase this question then. How do you resolve discrepancies between your church’s teachings and the findings of science?

Unfortunately there will always be things that I cannot figure out with science, like for instance, how do I explain to someone from a science perspective that I actually have a relationship with Jesus and that He speaks to me and gives me answers on things in my personal life etc. This is difficult because it is not something that you can proof with testing, research etc. but what I do know is that I really know Him and love Him so much!

What do you think someone from a science perspective would say to you in such a case? Do you think they have a point?

I hope these answers could be of some help to you.

Thank you, yes, it is nice to have an opinion from someone ‘in the circle’, so to speak. I have a vested if indirect interest, as a teacher and science advocate, in some of what I have heard Shofar preaches about my field (evolutionary biology). It would be nice to know whether what I hear is true or not.

Thanks for the way in which you treated and respected ne as a person in your mail. I really appreciate it! C U kenneth!

No worries. Thank you for your polite replies.

You are always welcome to contact me it you want to know more or just chat or have a coffee or whatever. Bless you man!
Regards, Andre’

I can’t in good conscience reciprocate with a “Bless you” (being an atheist and all!), but good luck in your endeavours. Again, please answer or don’t as you see fit.

Answer these questions …

Scenario 1:
a.) [The Law of Tithes and Offerings] And you shall EAT before The Lord your God, in the place which He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks … And the stranger and the fatherless and the WIDOW who are within your gates, MAY COME AND EAT and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you shall do.

b.) As Jesus sat near the temple treasury, he watched the people as they dropped in their money. Many rich men dropped in a lot of money; then a poor WIDOW came along and dropped in two little copper coins, worth about a penny. He called His disciples together and said to them, “I tell you that this poor widow put more in the offering box than all the others. For the others put in what they had to spare out of their riches; but she, poor as she is, gave all she had to live on.

Q: Which widow went home poorer and hungrier – your god’s Shofar cash driven revelation to you or the prophet Moses’ embedded promise of the coming of the Lamb of God and his ultimate authority as the Word of God – when Jesus whipped, beat, smashed down and threw out those who polluted the Temple with money and the gods and idols of money?

[You must remember in your answer Andre: Moses gave this commandment in obedience to God long, long before the temple and its Treasury were ever built, filled, squandered and eventually destroyed. Remember God, does not change – you quoted this yourself.]

Scenario 2:

Do you believe that you are equal with all other believers in the sight of your god?

Come towards an imaginary room with me. Nothing is inside this room except Jesus and the sound of my voice. Jesus watches and I am speaking…

Now come inside the room. You are lost, have nothing and nothing to give and see Jesus and he forgives you and tells you he loves you.

You run out and beg TEN men to come to the room with you. You tell them you are a pastor and you can help them all meet with this same Jesus regularly. The TEN men willingly come back to the room with you and sing they are so happy. Each has 10 coins in his pocket from working all week and after listening to you tell them for an hour how wonderful the Jesus is you met in this room – each one gives YOU 1 coin as a “tithe or offering” to Jesus.

Q: a.) How many coins do YOU have in your pocket pastor?
b.) How many coins do each of the TEN men have left?
c.) Why did Jesus leave the room?

Scenario 3:

Come towards an imaginary room with me again. Nothing is inside this room except Jesus and the sound of my voice. Jesus watches and I am speaking…

Now come inside the room. You are lost, have nothing and nothing to give and see Jesus and he forgives you and tells you he loves you.

You run out the room and go and work hard all week for TEN coins. At the end of the week you collect TEN bitterly poor children and invite them to come back to room with you. On the way you buy some loaves and some small fishes for one coin. Inside the room, you greet Jesus, thank him – then break up the loaves and fishes and feed the children while they meet and talk to Jesus themselves.

Q: a.) Why has Jesus not left the room?
b.) How much money is in your pocket now pastor?
c.) How many baskets of leftovers did you collect afterwards?

Andre, I dislike dishonesty intensely and you have not been very honest. You came here to defend something you were taught like a Pavlovian dog, exactly like Gerhard so rightly suggested – yet you cannot even be honest about that even when confronted and dare to dress it up as something you call a revelation of some god who wants your bit of cash when nothing is doctrine beyond the Word of God – Jesus. You are not interested in him because you refuse to listen to anything except the I.F.C.C. Shofar god in your head. Your choice. However, don’t pretend truth or ever try and collage the bible to suit your cult amongst its real students and frankly Jesus does not want your money, so:

Go buy your mom a bunch of flowers and kiss her and hug her and thank her for the thousands of times she cleaned up your shit, it sounds like you are a stubborn, inattentive and ungrateful one – to say the least. Then give those two quotations I posted above to your dad, and only Jesus words – not mine, and thank your dad for living up to it and being obedient to his commandments and loving you – the Greatest in his kingdom.

You don’t love Jesus, if you did you would respect his Word and be obedient to it. Like the countless thousands of you – YOU are not even interested in listening – but that is your problem.

Like I said to another Shofar girl – Hy kon self voor jou gestaan en dit duidelik vir jou se en jy sal steeds nie vir Hom hoor nie.

This is as far as I got, tell me if I’ve got it wrong: you don’t agree with me. But I don’t know what you’re not agreeing with. My initial statement:

There’s nothing wrong with coming to a decision to “give” a tenth of your income.

So maybe you disagree with that. Maybe you think people deciding to do that aren’t giving enough? Or shouldn’t give so much… can’t be that. I’m approaching the point where I’m considering regular charity contributions. (At last.) Ten percent actually feels steep to me at this point, but I’m working on it. (Finding ways to make that feel good and worthwhile on a visceral level.)

Alternatively you disagree with what I think our main disagreements are about. That I labelled (a) and (b). Could be you didn’t like the way I presented my thoughts (that’s a possible interpretation of the weird way in which you presented your thoughts). I’m tempted to give a multiple choice in an attempt to get a simpler answer from you so I can get some idea of what you’re thinking, but … you might not answer anyway, and pulling up a good multiple choice takes time and effort. Both of which I don’t actually have right now. I’m on vacation in an effort to spend time with family, and instead of doing the real work I still need to do before we hit the road tomorrow, I’m commenting here. Doh!

..

In any case, I corrected the blockquote in your first, and removed your second. Basically it should be:

<blockquote>block quoted text goes here </blockquote>

The instructions are certainly pretty confusing, and pretty much impossible to follow for people that don’t already know html (merely stating what markup is permitted, not how to use it). Bleh.

Whom do we answer first … ?

Pop Quiz (for Hugo only):

1. What do Jesus and Bono have in common if by some means we can get Bono’s money out of the way, and including the small pertinent fact that Bono, in spite of persistent media rumours that he is actually also David Beckham’s dad … Has, as yet – apparently still not died for anyone?

2. Explain at great length what capitalist philanthropy and the recorded socialist philology of the person (we cannot seem to agree was/is/… NOT a “Jesus Christ” wanting to be paid in cash) – have to do with one another – and, as:

A.) An applied “Christian” dynamix within the real social institution experienced by any bitterly poor pre-pubescent child in South Africa, considering that for whatever reason more money and human effort is expended on these mites by foreign non-“Christian” N.G.O.’s?

B.) How does this bias relate to the fact that Rhema International and the I.F.C.C. leadership’s “evangelical” annual revenue from Lawlessly garnered Old Testament “tithes and offerings” outstrip Bono’s lifetime earnings many many times over … any fiscal year?

[You may in either answer use the historically Buddhist precedent]

3.) Write a small treatise on why South Africa is the most financially significant “Christian” country in all of Africa, and yet, remains one of the most spiritually bankrupt and basely evil in regard to its own children in this entire world, both in malfeasance and apathetic neglect. In your answer you must employ the following fixed-reference and explain using a Ghandian base-line spiritual thermometer pre-gauged by the inhuman neglect of these poor kids and treating them worse than the most foul and repulsive of all animals.

[Since you suggested this thread, a blank paper will be treated as an incorrect answer and rewarded a GG in Woodwork.]

Actually, ag’nee, en weereens nee Hugo – We are not all agreed on this … ek stem nie saam nie en Jesus ook nie – en Hy, boonop uit sy eie mond uit, en duidelik in rooi en wit geskryf op sy eie bladsye – en nogwat — lank, lank lank voor Bono klaar ge-U2 het, of, ekke nou Ook hom “quote” en my ou meëningtjies daarby invoeg en hierby laat uitspreek. Ja…

Maar, kom ons hoor wat sê Bono weer vir oulaas:

Suit and tie comes up to me
His face red like a rose on a thorn bush
Like all the colours of a royal flush
And he’s peelin’ off those dollar bills
(Slappin’ ‘em down)
One hundred, two hundred.
…
Across the mud huts as children sleep

Watch this space

There’s nothing wrong with coming to a decision to “give” a tenth of your income.

In fact, it would be great of more people did that. I see Bono campaigning to urge people to give more. I see secular people like Dale McGowan create organisations that could encourage secular people to try to be more charitable as well (since they do generally fall behind on this, while it’s a good thing to do).

Why “a tenth”? Hmm, why not? It’ s a decent guideline at least, even if it isn’t law. Having some number or guideline could even help you be more selfish: I recall a blogger (youth minister and college prof) explaining how he doesn’t feel bad about taking nice vacations, etc, since he has given a tenth of his income and that leaves him satisfied with his financial contribution. Thus leaving him comfortable spending on himself (and family? significant other?) as well.

We’re all agreed on this, right? Then the other thing we could try to agree on is that which is the controversial part. I think the issue Al has above is about (a) pastors making their congregation feel obligated to give, especially if it were, say, manipulatively done with veiled threats of some variation of hell , and (b) whether the final destination of that charitable giving is at its most effective. That’s the line of questioning/concern, right?

Thus on (a) that just leaves the question of to be about whether there was manipulation involved or not, and for (b) a question of what one should do, what lengths one should go to, to ensure it’s efficiently used. In an ideal world, of course, one would want to be able to trust one’s church to spend the collected money wisely and efficiently.

We’re all agreed on this? Right? If so, cool. That’s about as much as I’m interested in discussing today / this week. I’ll probably get back to questions about manipulation and about efficient use of charity money on some other posts, some other day. (And I recognise Al’s comments above do attempt to tackle that question.)

Thanks for your posts,
Have a good week
Andre’

I see that you have become silent – maybe that is because of the last message I posted on behalf of a friend of mine who wanted to add something to this discussion. Hopefully you read it and tried to hear him too … and twice so … this – his second post, wherein the resurrected Jesus personally reads those same carefully selected portions of Malachi 3. The choice verses which you say God led you to, but in reality Shofar and the entire I.F.C.C. leadership preach and use to attach a cash price to their version of the gospel and in essence, ultimately steal the Lord’s Supper from the greatest in His kingdom – by glibly and lawlessly turning these Scriptures into cash that gets deposited in these “leader’s” “ministry” bank accounts:

“I am the Alpha and Omega and I will come near you for judgement; I will be a swift witness against sorcerers, adulterers, perjurers, against those who exploit wage earners and single-mothers and the fatherless, and against those who turn away the alien – because they do not fear Me says the Beginning and the End. For I am the Lord, I do not change … If anyone loves Me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him … Yet, from the days of your fathers you have gone away from My ordinances … Where is the guest room where I may eat with My disciples? … Behold, I … Who was, and is, and is to come – stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him and him with Me … [but] Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me! In what way have we robbed You? … You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me … Bring My body which is given for you … and this cup of the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you … into your midst, that there may be life in My Body … And, try me now on this, says the Lamb of God … [because] You have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen, repent and DO the first works … I am the Good Shepherd … do you love me? Feed my lambs … Do you love me? … Let the greatest among you be as a slave … Do you love me? … Feed my sheep … Do you love me?”

Al

P.S. Hugo, if Andre has left the conversation – do pass these last two posts I quoted here on to him by e-mail if you feel you may … (sans my commentary in this particular one). They seemed very relevant to all of Christianity and to me when I read them and ultimately more so in one other statement I haven’t copied here … bit too hectic

“If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself take up his cross and follow Me. For whosoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with all His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works … take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. For the Son of Man came to save that which was lost … false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand … for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me … take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones … Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you’ … Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in Heaven … therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven Men, but blasphemy against the Spirit will never be forgiven … for the Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, for He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor, He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted. To proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed … Let these words sink down into your ears … Whoever receives this little child in my name, receives Me … whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water … because it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should perish … take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones … I am the bread of life … inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these little ones, you did not do it to Me … with fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you … this is my body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me, this cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you … I am among you as the One who serves … pray that you may not enter temptation … as is written: ‘This people honours Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me. Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’ … Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod … My house shall be called a house of prayer but you have made it into a den of thieves … do not do according to their works; for they say and do not do … all their works they do, they do to be seen by men … which indeed appear beautiful outwardly … inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence … hypocrisy and lawlessness … take heed that no one deceives you … take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones … I am the bread of life … take heed, watch and pray.”

Al