I believe our universe is incredibly old but I also believe it came from a will beyond our understanding. I believe our world is millions and millions of years old. I also believe that we are not alone and that there are billions of galactic systems with billions of worlds remarkably similar to ours.

In my understanding the only universal language is pure mathematics and its alphabet the periodic table.

Hugo, when you have exhausted every avenue to attempt reasonable dialogue with people over a period of years – derision is called for.

Maybe not with the same more positive sentiments as Irene – but it also galls me when people will not think for themselves and take other people’s dogmas out for a walk. There is no way that Bad Ben knows me personally and every reaction he has to me comes from an idea he entertains. Sure, I’ve played into that idea without too much subtlety – but if the shoe was on the other foot, I would have invited the oke to come drink coffee with me to get to know the real person like you did and see what it is that causes him to think like that, while I would try and become his friend.

Something that I have done repeatedly with Shofarians, many who have agreed to meet and then for some reason – suddenly changed their mind. For all the bluff going on – Bad Ben has no desire at all to get to know who I really am. And here I’m just a bunch of meaningless words on a screen. One has to wonder why? If I am merely being needlessly nasty to this man, why is it he cannot rise above it?

I invite any Shofarian who wants to get to know me for who I really am to e-mail me. My wife and I have an open door. If we can deal with being knocked up in the early morning by close friends in a coke relapse and felling like they’ve committed spiritual suicide – we can have a reasonable chat person to person.

There is a piece of wisdom that says, if all is well at home, a man can handle anything the world throws at him. Well, all wasn’t well at home. All was going wrong everywhere. And my cellphone, she was being extremely difficult. At long last, we negotiated peace, diplomacy was successful. At least one thing is going right now. So now I’m ready to handle the world again.

*sigh*. I shouldn’t let what happens on this blog affect me so much. But y’know what the last straw does…

This goes for everyone, not Al specifically:

Verbosity is not a blessing. It is a barrier to building relationships. I’d probably say the same about debate. The whole principle behind debate is a dichotomy. A battle between “who is right” and “who is wrong”. I think it is a waste of time. I would much prefer a discussion, instead of a debate. I know it is hard when it comes to religions and worldviews, a very touchy topic, but that’s what, well, makes this so difficult. (Nicely tautological there.)

I’m shutting down comments on this post.

>Now explain to Irene and everyone else talking kak what these clear and easily understood Scriptures on worship and the will of God have to do with picking fights about the orgins of our planet or convincing yourself you can look down on other believers because of their lack of “earnestly wanting to seek after God”>

Thanks AL- i have no difficulty understanding the metaphors of premodern men. I never criticized the scriptures of any damn religion. I’m also not picking fights- i just wish that the young ones, especially, will not sell their rationality for a little sense of belonging. I gather you’re not too happy about Fred May’s way of conducting business either. So let’s leave it at that- you’re entitled to believe anything that makes you happy- so long you don’t come onto campus and start converting us.

In conclusion to this awfully dull argument- if you truly believe geologists, paleontologists, and academics to a great extent are wrong about the earth being give or take 7.3 billion years old- then dont be surprised if skeptics criticize your point of view.
And one last point- I wish christians will STOP talking about the LOST needing to be SAVED. It’s condescending, and closed minded.
Rather spend your money on feeding orphans and planting trees than trying to buy a bible for every lost soul on earth. Being a GOOD person has nothing to do with being a RELIGIOUS person. Any religious text can teach you about ETHICS. I can understand people being on a bad path- of whatever nature- but dont think its a god that saves them, its you who saves you from yourself.

There is much to be researched in your claims. Unfortunately I don’t have the time or the energy to do so. But it doesn’t seem fair to me that someone presents something as fact when someone else (also personally involved) presents facts which are inconsistent with it. full stop. end of discussion from my side.

* Totalitarian in their control of the behavior of their members
* Uses thought reform techniques
* Isolation of members (physical and/or psychological isolation) from society
* Uses deception in recruiting and/or fund raising
* Promotes dependence of the members on the group
* Uses mind altering techniques (chanting, meditation, hypnosis and various forms of repetitive actions) to stop normal critical thinking
* Appear exclusive and innovative
* Controls the flow of information
* Instills a fear of leaving the group.

All these points in my experience have very little relation to the reality of Shofar’s teaching and practise.

But you seem to have made up your mind, so who am I to argue?

end of discussion.

– Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O’Donnell, Propaganda And Persuasion

The “physical proof” Bad Ben keeps on harping about – show us…scan it, take a picture, make a copy – post it. Let us see the big hairy monster thing up your sleeve.

It is not an opinion.

Something…, any valuable material object that I either: …work for, is given to me or I inherit, steal or win in a competition – is mine to do fit with as I please.

Is that acceptable?

Shofar takes money from single women and orphaned students.

Fact.

No matter what excuses are dredged from Scripture – this is socially immoral.

To fix that immorality and correct that gross error, I am holding a public protest on 01 Mar to see Oude Molen transformed into Oude Molen Orphanage – rather than Fred May’s Gift From God for “obedience” – I’m quoting Lucille.

Considering we have never seen a bus load of people from Prochorus in Kayamandi ever enter the gates and only the inner circle of Shofar ever gather there for closed meetings, braais and sing-songs – we think that Oude Molen should be given to orphans that the students care for, it being the cult, racist and economic apartheid enclave it is now.

Simple.

Anything I say to achieve that is propaganda, advertising, social activism – name it I claim it…

the ignorance is not of criticism but of facts of which I have physical proof Al is ware of the inconsistency of opinion, yet still presents as facts.

Ignorance is my last option. I choose it reluctantly.

“A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.” (West & Langone, 1986)
What Are Some Characteristics of a Cult?

* Authoritarian in their power structure
* Totalitarian in their control of the behavior of their members
* Pyramidal structure
* Uses thought reform techniques
* Isolation of members (physical and/or psychological isolation) from society
* Uses deception in recruiting and/or fund raising
* Promotes dependence of the members on the group
* Totalitarian in their world view
* Uses mind altering techniques (chanting, meditation, hypnosis and various forms of repetitive actions) to stop normal critical thinking
* Appear exclusive and innovative
* Charismatic or messianic leader who is self-appointed and has a special mission in life
* Controls the flow of information
* Instills a fear of leaving the group.

Okay, I agree wholeheartedly with the wirter, it is my stance too and Shofar fits the criteria.

We don’t see the Studentekerk or the Roman Catholic church in Stellenbosch coming under the same crtitism – or churches like Vineyard, St Paul’s or Die Studentekerk. Especially Vineyard who have recently adopted the corporate policy that the church expects all members to be involved with ministry to the poor locally and of course let’s not forget the Studentekerk, which I simply do not recognise as the same church it was 15 years ago. Those churches have been asking deep questions, changing their views – and GROWING.

Now, let’s recap how this train went off the rails, apparently by my fault and “venom”. I was trying to have a real, valid discussion with Hugo and others on the subject of fear of the afterlife and Christ’s resurrection. The latter, something that never seemed to be broached properly in the suggested manner or even simply like one potential participant requested nicely.

Instead, I had to face this oke hijacking the discussion for no reason other than to sound clever, find fault and tell me he has the “goods” on me – “physical evidence” he called it and then blanketly accusing me of slander.

As a professional and highly accomplished non-fiction writer – I take great exception to being called a liar as I would being called a plagiarist.

As yet, and while he continues to accuse me of “slander”, maybe for the observers we can qualify this a little…and everything I say next can be corroborated by another witness. I’m only going to mention three things, because this list will just go on and on and on….

1. ) Did Fred May fire my best friend Siebe (Shofar’s first church secretary and a man who “sowed” his BMW into the kingdom and then gave Fred the keys…) back when I was in Shofar? Yes. Why? Because Siebe told him something I said in private, in relation to Fred’s claim that – “God had raised him up to lead a revival that would transform Stellenbosch and eventually sweep through Africa”. I told Siebe: “God would not limit himself to one lone coloured man with very barely concealed racial resentment and a deep sense of material entitlement to and from Afrikaans white people to usher in a revival. He would do it His own way and thousands would be moved by His Spirit…”. He told this to Fred and got banished from Shofar and fired immediately. I’m sure that if I and Siebe were to confront him, Fred’s reason would be – Siebe was being divisive. That is why “submission to Authority” is in the Foundations. It allows Fred to marginalise or threaten anyone who dares to disagree with his “prophetic” – regardless of whether it is contrary to the authority of Scripture or the revealed Nature and Character of God. And at the time, I was the only person in Shofar who had actually studied in a formal Bible College. Something Fred was going to resent very, very deeply – because I kept on pointing out the flaws in his teachings. True or False?

2. ) Did Fred May lie to my parole officer in an attempt to silence me by having me imprisoned for the rest of my sentence? Lucille May told my wife that Fred claims he has never even spoken to the man and this is a figment of my imagination. Something I hallucinated while in drug rehab. This one would be a coin toss either way for or against the truth, if it were not for my unique friendship with Major Rodney Barkhuizen. How many scews take a convict home to meet their wives and children? So far from being a coin toss – this one can go to court under oath. The Truth the whole Truth so help me God or False?

3. ) Did Lucille May tell my wife of a long list of virgins that I apparently seduced while I was in Shofar and to whom I must repent before she or her husband will accept me as a Christian two weeks ago? Did she repeat it about six times and insist on this during their interview. This one, I suggest you follow up properly yourself and question Lucille and Natasha independantly. While I have given you every reason to judge me, and let’s face it – you have risen to the occasion magnificently – you will have to back up these things you say to me with facts. True or False? (Well that depends on the integrity of your homework. Tash is in our Kodak shop most days and I’m certain you cannot possibly have any reason to write her off as a Christian too.)

Only facts will bring to light any lie I am accused of Bad Ben. So let’s see you put your money where your mouth is and see where the integrity you claimed to have treated me with leads you. You clearly do not like being treated the way you treat other people – as someone has pointed out. So let’s go back and start all over again without agendas and equipped with hard facts instead. Bringing my character into it AGAIN will prove nothing except a willingness to embrace superstition, gossip and ignorance.

(Watch Bennie B. – this will go directly back to my personality, character, sanity, etc…, etc… In those urls you mailed me – did it ever go into the methodologies of cults when confronted by individuals who point out their most obvious flaws. Haven’t had time to read them all yet. I posted a long article in Facebook on the anatomy of the subject from a pastor banished from Rhema…)

So… let’s try to keep discussions here “clean”. Al, can I suggest you try to provide a concise explanation of your offensive tone, in two or three polite sentences?

My guess: he would like to have a discussion, but Shofar’s “ignore him” policy, and their belief that he is manipulative, has him frustrated to the point of no patience.

/me looks at my foot longingly again. It fits my mouth so comfortably.

Insult your intelligence, really? You still haven’t explained this slander I am guilty of, clause 11 aside – is this some kind of extra-scriptural nonsense Fred thought out to avoid accountibility?

Scripture says do not receive an accusation against an elder except by two or three witnesses. How many more credible witnesses do you need???

While, you propogate idolism and call it Christianity and accuse me of being a bare faced liar, something you still cannot qualify – expect nothing from me except to tell you straight what a fool you and all Fred May’s disciples are.

Slander…??? I’m sure your insulted intelligence can qualify this….

And you talk about personally held opinions about shofar and propagate them. You both are doing the same thing. While either of you are trying to take the high horse while both of you are already biased towards your respective personal held opinions is beyond me.

>Al is happy to dish it up, but can he take it? I think not.

Neither can you, i remember a ignoring comment from you. Jeesh, how about both of you accept you have different held opinions and leave it at that. Why the personal attacks?

When did I insist on offending him?

/me scratches my head at my word choice. What was I thinking at the time? Bad word choice. Did I get some of my thoughts crossed again?

I think the piece I had in mind was “Acid alex slanders the crap out of the people I love and trust.”

I can try to reconstruct my sentence, dropping the “insist”. I think I’d rather forget of my weak attempts at… …ah, just forget it.

Sorry Bad Ben.