I love old posts, they look so funny sometimes. A lot has developed since I wrote this, and I would write things differently were I to rewrite it. But anyway.

Before I get bogged down in your language in an attempt to understand what exactly you are challenging or what you would like to talk about, I want to ask you one question in particular:

What is your understanding of the label “humanism”? In your mind, for you, what concepts, what perspectives, what purposes in particular, does that label point to?

Do you believe in heaven and hell, or was Jesus lying?

I believe in a heaven and hell that exists here on earth, and I believe it to be a valuable purpose to aim to reduce hell and help heaven come. On earth. Can I suggest you go read and think about this post on RealLivePreacher: Hell – I’m eagerly anticipating the conclusion of that episode on RLP.

Though there are false teachers, David Wilkerson is not one of them

How about Choo Thomas? Is she a false teacher? I have serious doubts about anything relating to “end-times prophecies”. Have you read David Wilkerson’s “The Vision”? And what about all the prophecies in this list: 63 failed & 1 ambiguous end-of-the-world predictions between 30 CE and 1990 CE.

When I read “The Vision”, I came to the conclusion “this is nonsense”. That’s my belief, you probably believe something different…? But anyway, that then started casting doubts, for me, upon David Wilkerson’s other works. Now when I look back at it, it looks very much like “Religious Fundamentalism for people without ADD”, as a humanist friend of mine labeled it. I’m actually keen to reread, if I ever find the time, as my recollection of it is not very good.

Generally, these days, I prefer to read stuff by Bible scholars that don’t reject or fear Higher Criticism.

We see this occuring today. We are not fools, nature is unleashed. Or go tell that to China, Japan, all of the asian coast, Africa, Texas etc etc

Then .. in that hour.. will humanism save us?

I’d be interested to see what people think will “remain” afterwards. Sipping tea, eating sandwiches in front of the tele, feet on the sofa.. we have *no* idea what people are going through as we speak.
Try telling them to be “humanist”.. Some are barely staying alive, others are burying their children.

I am one of those in the ease. I have little idea of true, deep suffering.

But this I am sure, at the point of death I will not be: rushing to sign a mortgage for a house; improving my lifestyle; looking for a comfy philosophy… I’d be screaming out to God for mercy.

Think about it.

However, we are using rational thinking to comprehend the infinite. Mere finite minds will not apprehend the infinite – nor can flesh understand God.

We are called to lay our lives down to God. This is the way of the cross. According to the Jesus you trust in, there is *no* other way.

” those who climb over the walls are thieves, but he who comes through the gate is the true shepherd”

“I am the way, the truth and the life, no man goes to the father but by me”

“if *any* man (that includes us) wants to be my disciple, let him pick up his cross daily, deny himself and follow me”

“for the road that leads to destruction is large, many are on it. But narrow and difficult is the road that leads to life.”

Do you believe in God? Those who love God obey God. Do you have salvation? From whom? Ourselves? No fear, or the cross of calvary was in vain.
Do you believe in heaven and hell, or was Jesus lying?
Friend, these things be and we can do nothing about it. In a hundred years, none of us will be here.. we’d be just pushing up the daisies.

BUT .. ” though heaven and earth passes, my words *will not* pass away”

Or shall we recreate truth in our own image?

I, myself, am a fool before God. Who am I that God should change times and laws for me?

Though there are false teachers, David Wilkerson is not one of them – according to the bible. However, every man may call any other false according to his value system.

May the Lord truly touch our souls – mine first. We need the touch of the holy spirit.. for surely there is a heaven and a hell. The snake lied, man does *not* live forever thus avoid the question.

I do not claim to be the alpha and the omega. I am foolish man like yourselves. But He, in him I trust.

God be glorified. Praise the name of Jesus. Let myself be lowered, that he be raised.

I think you are tremendously brave. Not only for being willing to set aside the certainties of youth, but for sharing your story.

Just as non-smokers are useless counsellors to help people stop smoking, I know that I (raised without religion) don’t begin to understand the difficulties and pressures that face those trapped in a religion that doesn’t fit them. I’m glad there are people like you who have been through it.

One person who is working on just what you say is the founder of “Leaving Religion” (http://www.leavingreligion.org/). He is also the “humanist contact” at the university chaplaincy here, and an excellent person to talk to about spiritual matters from a naturalistic perspective.

Thankyou again for sharing your touching story.

(And I also think this is a well-written post.)